# Michael Moore = Liar. Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 14, 2004, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240 "2004-06-14T04:15:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/241 "2004-06-23T22:33:35Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > I would also like to point out that I bent over backwards to cite an impartial site; I discounted any site with even of a right-wing view. My bad. That should read "I discounted any site with even **a hint** of a right-wing view. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/242 "2004-06-24T07:19:47Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > Still, the main issue is whether Moore is a liar and you have conspicuously failed to acknowledge all the other points made about him. **Shrug** I don’t see the point; while I disagree with the folks who want to dismiss **everything** Michael Moore does by simply calling him a liar, I do not deny that his works are slanted, selectively edited, and occasionally employ the same disregard for the facts that his foes use. Like a number of folks, I think he undercuts his own efforts when he has to shade the facts to make a point – better to be like Al Franken, who gets his stuff bulletproof _before_ skewering his opponents with the truth. I haven’t spent any money on any of Michael Moore’s stuff since _Downsize This!,_ precisely because of his careless craftsmanship. On the other hand, I admit that I’m holding out hope that **Fahrenheit 9/11** marks a new level of honesty from Moore, because I think he does have some talent, and it’s disappointing to see his skills go wasted because he’s not as rigorous as he should be. > [@sleeping](#): > > Nevertheless, it seems you are relentless in your quest to salvage Moore’s name–you point out one inaccuracy you found and disregard the rest. No, I’m just tired of folks who like to take small niggly details and use that as “proof” that Moore lies about “everything.” Stuff like endlessly debating over whether or not the bank has guns on-site to give to customers simply misses the bigger point, IMO – namely, why would anyone think giving out firearms as a premium is a _good_ thing? Similarly, some of the points you listed strike me as simply proof that Moore got sloppy with his work – which, while disappointing, doesn’t entirely discredit the points he was trying to make. Michael Moore is no angel, and I don’t know of anyone who thinks he is. On the other hand, he’s also not the pathological liar his critics paint him as, and _that’s_ the issue which raises my hackles. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/243 "2004-06-24T10:19:01Z")
> [@Rjung](#): > > No, I’m just tired of folks who like to take small niggly details and use that as “proof” that Moore lies about “everything.” Small niggly details? You mean like saying “slanted, selectively edited, and occasionally employ the same disregard for the facts that his foes use” instead of “lies”? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/244 "2004-06-24T13:29:16Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Michael Moore is no angel, and I don’t know of anyone who thinks he is. On the other hand, he’s also not the pathological liar his critics paint him as, and _that’s_ the issue which raises my hackles. I’d like to second that emotion. It seems to me that no one but Moore’s fiercest opponents believes that anyone thnks of him as The Lone Voice of Truth, whose Every Word Must Be Noted, Trusted, and Acted Upon. Everyone I know who _likes_ Moore’s work, myself included, considers it to be interesting, entertaining, and sometimes thought-provoking, but I don’t think anyone’s ever mistaken it for being unbiased or without flaws. I certainly know no one who considers Moore a serious, somber, “just the facts” journalist, and Moore seems to have done everything he could to discourage such notions. The man’s not sitting in some ritzy penthouse rubbing his hands together and cackling over his next big plan to cheat Americans of their money while clouding their minds at the same time, and painting him as such seems less honest to me than anything Moore has ever tried to pull. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/245 "2004-06-24T13:54:39Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > The man’s not sitting in some ritzy penthouse rubbing his hands together… Actually, he is. He lives in a plush apartment two blocks west of Central Park on Park Avenue in a ritzy commercial/residential building complete with a doorman, a concierge, and a heated indoor swimming pool. He likes to bill it as living above a Baby Gap store. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/246 "2004-06-24T14:08:23Z")
1. Is it a penthouse? 2. Is he rubbing his hands together, etc? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/247 "2004-06-24T14:09:50Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Actually, he is. He lives in a plush apartment two blocks west of Central Park on Park Avenue in a ritzy commercial/residential building complete with a doorman, a concierge, and a heated indoor swimming pool. He likes to bill it as living above a Baby Gap store. The best cites Google provides all value it at $1.2m. Which, if I’m not mistaken, is hardly going to buy the best place in town. Hell, my Gran’s house in London has risen in value to nearly that much, and nobody’s accusing _her_ of hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/248 "2004-06-24T14:15:42Z")
The median existing home price is $170,800. You think that at $1,200,000 he’s just an average Joe? Damn, if he’ll just move south, he can buy a palace for that. On the waterfront. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/249 "2004-06-24T14:47:03Z")
I don’t believe you get a palatial estate for $1.2M in manhattan, certainly not in that location. I’ll go check out some RE prices, let’s see what we can get… ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/250 "2004-06-24T14:57:12Z")
From the NY Times real estate section. Midtown West, $1-1.25M, you basically get an fairly large (for manhattan) 2br 2bath apartment. Ugh, now I’m all depressed… ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/251 "2004-06-24T15:03:37Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] The median existing home price is $170,800./QUOTE] The mean price in Manhattan is $998,000. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/252 "2004-06-24T15:03:46Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > The median existing home price is $170,800. You think that at $1,200,000 he’s just an average Joe? Who said he was an Average Joe? He’s a successful, award-winning, internationally known filmmaker. What he isn’t, however, is Dr. Evil. > [@](#): > > \*Damn, if he’ll just move south, he can buy a palace for that. On the waterfront. \*I’m not sure what difference that makes. I mean, if I moved to Mississippi or Kentucky, I could probably get a pretty nice apartment for what I’m currently paying. (A quick Google search tells me that the median monthly rent in those states is about 2/3 my current rent.) If I moved to certain other Asian countries, I might be able to find something approaching “palatial” for the same amount. That doesn’t mean I’ve got a swank pad now, though. I don’t even have an oven. Or a dishwasher. Or a washing machine that doesn’t need to be filled with a hose. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/253 "2004-06-24T15:24:13Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] > [@Liberal](#): > > The median existing home price is $170,800./QUOTE] > The mean price in Manhattan is $998,000. Why does he have to live in Manhattan? That’s like saying that someone in Beverly Hills is just one of the guys because his mansion is in line with the others. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/254 "2004-06-24T15:27:03Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Who said he was an Average Joe? He’s a successful, award-winning, internationally known filmmaker. What he isn’t, however, is Dr. Evil. > > \*I’m not sure what difference that makes. I mean, if I moved to Mississippi or Kentucky, I could probably get a pretty nice apartment for what I’m currently paying. (A quick Google search tells me that the median monthly rent in those states is about 2/3 my current rent.) If I moved to certain other Asian countries, I might be able to find something approaching “palatial” for the same amount. That doesn’t mean I’ve got a swank pad now, though. I don’t even have an oven. Or a dishwasher. Or a washing machine that doesn’t need to be filled with a hose. Stop pretending to be so stupid. You tried to differentiate Moore from wealthy money-grubbers when that is exactly what he is. A miniscule percentage of Americans can afford his lifestyle, and if he didn’t care about the money, he could show his film for free. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/255 "2004-06-24T15:52:39Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Stop pretending to be so stupid. I rarely pretend to be anything, it’s too much bother. I’m exactly as stupid as I appear to be. > [@](#): > > - > > You tried to differentiate Moore from wealthy money-grubbers when that is exactly what he is. \*No, _you_ chopped my sentence down to the first clause so you could treat it like I was trying to say “Moore isn’t rich”. When it comes to wealth I’m sure he’s worth many times what I am, although he ain’t Bill Gates or even Oprah. But that wasn’t my point anyway, which I think should be obvious to anyone reading the whole sentence and not just the bit you chose to quote. What I was trying to do was differentiate Moore from the Bondian supervillain his opponents have portrayed him as, a man who acquired vast sums through gleefully manipulating an unsuspecting public with fiendish lies. > [@](#): > > - > > A miniscule percentage of Americans can afford his lifestyle, and if he didn’t care about the money, he could show his film for free. \*Why shouldn’t he care about the money? If it were me, I sure as heck would care about the money. Has he ever said he doesn’t care about the money? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/256 "2004-06-24T15:55:42Z")
Over and over. He misrepresents himself as a working class stiff from a meager background who lives above a retail store, and claims that everything is about the “art”. If you read the transcript of his interview with Lauer, he even claims that F9/11 isn’t about politics. I mean, holy cow. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/257 "2004-06-24T16:01:56Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > If I moved to certain other Asian countries, I might be able to find something approaching “palatial” for the same amount. Moving to one of the other four boroughs – or even to Westchester, Long Island, Southern Connecticut, or across the river to New Jersey – is not the same as moving to a third world country (well, maybe New Jersey is). Those are all reasonable distances from Manhattan. Thousands of people make that commute every day, precisely for cost reasons. Using the high cost of Manhattan as a barometer is exactly like using the high cost of Beverly Hills as a barometer. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/258 "2004-06-24T16:34:54Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Over and over. Then it should be easy for you to provide me with a cite for Moore claiming not to care about the money. The only relevant quote from him I’ve seen is[this](http://www.theonionavclub.com/feature/index.php?issue=3638&f=1): > [@2000 interview with The Onion AV Club](#): > > Nobody from the working class would ever begrudge my success. If you’re from the working class, if any of us escape and do well, it’s like a big cheer goes up. “One more made it out! I’m next! I’m in line!” The local paper in Flint has never written the words, “and he lives in a beautiful apartment on the Upper West Side of Manhattan,” because the local paper in Flint hates me. If they wrote that, that would be a positive. Everybody would be like, “All right, Mike! One for our side!” So they will never write that, because it would be such a badge of honor that I’ve done well, or that my book sold all these copies, or that I made all this money. Doesn’t sound like someone who’s trying to pretend like he doesn’t care a whit about material gain to me. > [@](#): > > - > > He misrepresents himself as a working class stiff from a meager background who lives above a retail store, and claims that everything is about the “art”. If you read the transcript of his interview with Lauer, he even claims that F9/11 isn’t about politics. I mean, holy cow. \*None of that is a claim of not caring at all about the money, though. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/259 "2004-06-24T16:36:03Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Over and over. He misrepresents himself as a working class stiff from a meager background who lives above a retail store, and claims that everything is about the “art”. If you read the transcript of his interview with Lauer, he even claims that F9/11 isn’t about politics. I mean, holy cow. If he lived in sackcloth and ashes and gave away all his earthly belongings, would you be satisfied? Yes, he is still the working class stiff, and even though he has money now, it won’t erase how he was raised. And where did he claim it is all about the “art”? ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/260 "2004-06-24T16:43:20Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > **Shrug** I don’t see the point; while I disagree with the folks who want to dismiss **everything** Michael Moore does by simply calling him a liar, I do not deny that his works are slanted, selectively edited, and occasionally employ the same disregard for the facts that his foes use. Like a number of folks, I think he undercuts his own efforts when he has to shade the facts to make a point – better to be like Al Franken, who gets his stuff bulletproof _before_ skewering his opponents with the truth. Well, literally speaking, _no_ pundit can ever lie about _everything_, but I think “his works are slanted, selectively edited, and occasionally employ the same disregard for the facts that his foes use” enough that he’s not a good source of information. Yes, there is some unreasonable hair-splitting done by some of his critics, but there’s also some unnecessary minutae brought up by his defenders. I haven’t read Al Franken’s book but from what I understand it was pretty good–he doesn’t go to the lengths Moore does; mostly he just seems to engage in name calling which is juvenile, but hardly lying. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, I admit that I’m holding out hope that **Fahrenheit 9/11** marks a new level of honesty from Moore, because I think he does have some talent, and it’s disappointing to see his skills go wasted because he’s not as rigorous as he should be. Oh, I agree with you: he does have talent as a director. Now, if only he’d realize that he can do a great documentary without resorting to distortions…(I mean, it’s not as if he has nothing to work with in a film about the Bush administration) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240.md?page=14)