# Michael Moore = Liar. Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 14, 2004, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240 "2004-06-14T04:15:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2004, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/81 "2004-06-15T14:37:00Z")
This thread has just become another Dope exercise in the \*ad hominem \* as a comfortable defense of willful ignorance. It’s become a referendum on whether you like Moore or not, and has conveniently displaced any substantive discussion of the issues he raises. That happens too often around here, IMO. Any thread that touches on a controversial issue is likely to devolve into an examination of the personal worth of each position’s proponents, and discussion of the positions themselves gets dropped along the way. This is of course what the “conservative media” is trying to do as regards _Fahrenheit 911_. If they can succeed in keeping the discussion focused on Michael Moore, they can keep people from looking too closely at what Michael Moore says. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2004, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/82 "2004-06-15T14:49:56Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Speaking of humorists, when it comes to political discussions I’ve been party to (including those on the SDMB), I’ve rarely heard people refer to the works of Michael Moore to support their position. However, I have heard and read many people seriously quote the works of George Carlin, Chris Rock (who appears in _BfC_), and Matt Groening. This is material arguably much less serious than Moore’s work, but I have yet to see anyone get similarly upset that the words of these fine gentlemen are being given more weight than they deserve as mere “entertainment”. I don’t think this is supporting a viewpoint so much as illustrating a viewpoint using the words of another. One might do this because Groening, Chris Rock, or P.J. O’Rourke has already said what you are trying to say in a more concise and amusing way. They aren’t being cited as sources of information, they’re simply being used to add a bit of color. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2004, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/83 "2004-06-15T18:48:32Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Which is why he rejected his Oscar for best documentary. Oh wait… I heard Moore wanted _Bowling for Columbine_ listed in the “Best Animated Film” category, but the folks at the Academy said that Charlton Heston didn’t have enough musical numbers to qualify, so he had to settle for being pigeonholed in the Documentary category instead. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Gamaliel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b487fb/32.png) [@Gamaliel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gamaliel)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2004, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/84 "2004-06-15T19:07:34Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Brady Bill anyone? You actually think that nobody thought giving the gun on the premises immediately after opening a CD wasn’t worse than getting the gun at a later time/date at a licensed gun dealer? > > If the only important fact was that a gun was made available, why bother filming Moore walking out of the bank with a gun? Because he got it _from the bank!_ :smack: I think the outrageous/strange/funny/bizarre/whatever thing about this incident is the fact that he got it from a financial institution which on most of the planet Earth is not traditionally associated with the distribution of firearms, not that he got it on day 1 instead of 3 or in building X instead of building Y or for doing task Q instead of task R. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2004, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/85 "2004-06-15T20:38:09Z")
> [@Gamaliel](#): > > Because he got it _from the bank!_ :smack: He only got it “from the bank” because he’s a filmmaker and requested in advance that the gun be there for him so he could include it in the movie. Most other customers get the gun _from a gun dealer!_ :smack: You say the important part is that the transaction is through the bank, and that’s lovely, how does showing a normal (through a gun dealer) transaction change that fact? It doesn’t. It doesn’t detract from that fact in the slightest. However, showing him walk out of the bank doors with a gun suggests that the bank has a room full of rifles for any and all comers, which _isn’t true_. You may not think it’s important, I guarantee other people do. Is his audience is so dense that they can’t follow a multi-step transaction, thus the need to dumb it down and pretend the guns are stored in the bank? I hardly think so. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2004, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/86 "2004-06-15T21:02:53Z")
> [@iamthewalrus(:3=](#): > > Most of the complaints listed in that site are that the editing was done in such a way as to suggest the process was easier than it is, and to further his political agenda. Well, yeah, that’s true, but it doesn’t make him a liar. What? Has the definition of “lie” changed that much? If misrepresentation is not a lie, then Bush didn’t lie, North Korea didn’t lie, Clinton didn’t lie and OJ didn’t lie! Moore’s sequence suggested that anyone could do what he did in the film. That’s a lie. S¬ …V ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2004, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/87 "2004-06-15T21:30:26Z")
> [@Tapioca Dextrin](#): > > I used to love Michael Moore back in the days of _Roger & Me_ and _The Awful Truth_. He used to make interesting shows with some insight into the way BigBusiness/GovernmentCronies worked, but almost everything he’s done recently has veered into self parody. Another demonstration of how power corrupts. Michael Moore gets our attention, knows we’re listening, feels powerful. Then he plays fast and loose with the facts, cause he knows (or thinks) he can get away with it. Anything is OK, cause it fits his agenda. His crowning achievement, however, is not his films, but his performance at the awards. He showed himself to be a self-absorbed egotist: the rules didn’t apply to him; he’s above the rules; he no longer has to be accountable, or tell the truth, or be fair – he’s got POWER. Let’s just keep him away fom the “absolute power” button. He **will** lie to you to get his finger on it. **We call Michael Moore a liar so that people will know the truth.** It doesn’t matter how much of a lie it was. It doesn’t matter if the lie was ‘for our own good.’ It doesn’t even matter what side of the political fence he’s on (albeit he tries to play with the PC side). What matters is that we know we cannot trust Michael Moore. And particularly we cannot trust him anywhere in close proximity to our brains. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2004, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/88 "2004-06-15T21:31:27Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > He only got it “from the bank” because he’s a filmmaker and requested in advance that the gun be there for him so he could include it in the movie. Most other customers get the gun _from a gun dealer!_ :smack: The bank in question _was_ a registered dealer. See my earlier post. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2004, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/89 "2004-06-15T21:50:18Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > I still can’t understand all the vitriol against Moore. To read these boards and other sites, the impression is of a cook, full of lies, which makes me wonder why he hasn’t been (successfully) sued. Or why he’s so dangerous. > Because he can only be dangerous if he actually has a point to make. Or, if people actually \*\*\*believe \* \*\* him. Let’s get some perspective here. The OP as stated is: > [@](#): > > Michael Moore = Liar. Why? Now we know. We call Micheal Moore a liar because he lies. He misrepresents the truth. He misleads people for his own agenda. We have both vitriolic Moore defenders and vitriolic Moore destroyers and a whole lot of us somewhere in between. I think we answered the OP adequately. Anyone want to start a thread(s) cheering or chiding Moore? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2004, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/90 "2004-06-15T22:07:09Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > The bank in question _was_ a registered dealer. See my earlier post. I read your earlier post, what I said was that they don’t stock guns at the bank branch for distribution to anyone who opens an account, which is what Moore filmed. Being a registered dealer gave the branch the ability to do a background check. 1 - Bank is a registered firearms dealer - Fact 2 - Bank gives away guns to CD buyers - Fact 3 - Bank performs background check at the branch - Fact 4 - Bank normally sends customers to an offsite dealer to pick up guns - Fact 5 - Bank normally gives away guns at the branch - Not Fact 6 - Bank normally stores guns inside the branch - Not Fact The last three lines get deliberately muddied by the way Moore filmed this topic. The way he filmed it, one would think #'s 5 and 6 were true, as opposed to false. That, to me, is a misrepresentation of the facts, designed to give viewers a skewed view of the situation. I would like to point out that NOBODY has attempted to dispute facts 1-3, those are freely admitted by everybody, it is 4-6 that are the bone of contention. Nobody said he was a liar because the bank didn’t give away guns, it was because they don’t give them away at the branch, which is what Moore depicted. Saying over and over that 1-3 are true is fine, but nobody is disputing that in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2004, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/91 "2004-06-15T22:29:47Z")
My gripe with Moore is this: There are smart liberals and stupid liberals just as there are smart conservatives and stupid conservatives. I find I have more in common with smart conservatives than stupid liberals so that’s the way my respect runs. Just because a man happens to have roughly the same political beliefs as me does not in any way affect my judgement of his integrity and intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2004, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/92 "2004-06-15T22:34:10Z")
Is there any other evidence about the bank scene, other than the biased representation of a single interview on BowlingforTruth? Because it’s obviously in that interview that there’s easily as much wilful misrepresentation of the facts as in BfC. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2004, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/93 "2004-06-15T22:48:55Z")
Not exactly a lie, but you gotta wonder about the morality of a man who would [keep quiet about his knowledge of the prisoner abuse scandals](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040614/ap_en_ot/michael_moore_1) _months_ before the story broke as to keep the scoop for himself to boost ticket sales… and then blames his fear of his detractors for "prevent"ing him to release the news. > [@](#): > > "Filmmaker Michael Moore (news) had footage of prisoner abuse in Iraq (news - web sites) long before the atrocities captured international attention, but decided to stay quiet until his new movie came out. Now he’s questioning that decision. > > I had it months before the story broke on ‘60 Minutes,’ and I really struggled with what to do with it," Moore told the San Francisco Chronicle. “I wanted to come out with it sooner, but I thought I’d be accused of just putting this out for publicity for my movie. That prevented me from making maybe the right decision.” Sorry, but this guy is a prick. People were tortured for months while he wrestled with his “decision.” Nice guy, Michael! ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2004, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/94 "2004-06-15T23:00:32Z")
What about the news media outlets who also had that footage and sat on it until the scandal broke? I mean, it’s not as if Moore filmed the prisoner abuse stuff himself; he got it from some news folks in Iraq, who are just as guilty of “keeping quiet” about the abuse as Moore is. Heck, CBS delayed reporting the Abu Garade scandal _twice_ because the Pentagon told them to supress it. Do they deserve blame as well? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2004, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/95 "2004-06-15T23:19:26Z")
His ‘keeping quiet’ about prisoner abuse is identical to what journalists and reporters do every day. Why are these things suddenly black-and-white offensive because it’s Moore doing them? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2004, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/96 "2004-06-15T23:34:18Z")
The difference is: 1. Moore stands to personally profit (as in 7 figures+) from keeping it secret if he is able to release the news on a timetable of his choosing. 2. Moore, unlike journalists, has no professional ethos regarding backchecking his sources, getting a second source, etc. 3. Part of Moore’s self-image is that he is morally superior to the Bush administration, conservatives, etc. and that he is a tireless defender of the little man. Except when that defense could cost him a scoop that would result in $X of unrealized revenue, it seems. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/97 "2004-06-16T07:06:39Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#): > > We have both vitriolic Moore defenders and vitriolic Moore destroyers and a whole lot of us somewhere in between. I think we answered the OP adequately. “We”? You posted with the title “Think of the OP” and then proceeded to fail to pay any attention to it whatsoever. That’s okay, because almost everyone else did too. I was hoping- indeed, I asked- that this wouldn’t turn into a “I like him!” “I hate him!” thread, but… 5 pages and _one_ actual answer later (thank you, **Master Wang-Ka** ), I’ve decided to stop reading. ---
**Author:** ![Martiju](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@Martiju](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martiju)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/98 "2004-06-16T09:54:52Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > The difference is: > > 1. Moore stands to personally profit (as in 7 figures+) from keeping it secret if he is able to release the news on a timetable of his choosing. > > **2. Moore, unlike journalists, has no professional ethos regarding backchecking his sources, getting a second source, etc.** > > 1. Part of Moore’s self-image is that he is morally superior to the Bush administration, conservatives, etc. and that he is a tireless defender of the little man. Except when that defense could cost him a scoop that would result in $X of unrealized revenue, it seems. My bolding. And this is, presumably, precisely why he couldn’t realise his images (which were of ‘abuse’ rather than ‘torture’. He’d have been jumped all over because of the personal gains he would make and because he is not a ‘professional journalist’, whatever that means. Don’t get me wrong, I can see where he adjusts reality to make his point but grow up people - everybody does that. You can’t say that just because someone whose views you don’t agree with does it, then it’s bad, but when those who agree with you do it then it’s fine. And as for this: > [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > “We”? You posted with the title “Think of the OP” and then proceeded to fail to pay any attention to it whatsoever. That’s okay, because almost everyone else did too. I was hoping- indeed, I asked- that this wouldn’t turn into a “I like him!” “I hate him!” thread, but… > > 5 pages and one actual answer later (thank you, Master Wang-Ka), I’ve decided to stop reading. I think you did get an answer. It’s that there aren’t any blatantly undisputable lies. As with all things, there are different perspectives and different people trying to coerce you into seeing their point of view. J. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/99 "2004-06-17T05:14:31Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > “We”? You posted with the title “Think of the OP” and then proceeded to fail to pay any attention to it whatsoever. That’s okay, because almost everyone else did too. I was hoping- indeed, I asked- that this wouldn’t turn into a “I like him!” “I hate him!” thread, but… > > 5 pages and _one_ actual answer later (thank you, **Master Wang-Ka** ), I’ve decided to stop reading. Try reading my earlier posts. I told you that he IS a liar, and I told you why. This post was just a follow-up saying "enough already! We demonstrated the OP. We said why he’s called a liar and why. So what do you alledge I missed addressing? Or did you only read the posts you ‘liked?’ ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/100 "2004-06-17T05:31:48Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#): > > Try reading my earlier posts. I told you that he IS a liar, and I told you why. > This post was just a follow-up saying "enough already! We demonstrated the OP. We said why he’s called a liar and why. > > So what do you alledge I missed addressing? > > Or did you only read the posts you ‘liked?’ You referred to the one point that basically everyone else had already jumped on- the bank sequence. You then said it was a lie because it fits your definition of a lie. Great. Only problem is about thirty people beat you to the punch. It isn’t that you were pissing on the spirit of the OP, while paying lip service to the thread title. Half the people posting to this thread did the same thing. It’s that you told everyone else to pay attention to the OP… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240.md?page=6)