# Michael Moore = Liar. Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 14, 2004, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240 "2004-06-14T04:15:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/121 "2004-06-18T10:04:36Z")
Looking at the animation again I’ve realised that Moore also made the Atlantic Ocean only seem about 20 feet wide. These geographical lies will not stand. The South Park guys and Moore are cads of the highest order. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/122 "2004-06-18T10:41:47Z")
I dunno. I think my major dislike of Moore is just my knee-jerk reaction never to trust a rich socialist. 😃 (Granted, maybe socialist is the wrong word. But it’s past five in the morning and I’m hard-pressed to think of another.) ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/123 "2004-06-18T12:21:20Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Looking at the animation again I’ve realised that Moore also made the Atlantic Ocean only seem about 20 feet wide. > > These geographical lies will not stand. The South Park guys and Moore are cads of the highest order. The South Park guys had nothing to do with the animation, though that’s a mistaken impression many seem to get from the film, and one that BowlingForTruth seems to think Moore wanted to convey. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/124 "2004-06-18T12:34:28Z")
Well **I** made the assumption based on the fact that the animation looks a bit like the SP type of animation and that one of the guys was a contributer to the movie and the fact that the other animation you see is from SP. I’ve never even heard Moore talk about the amination. I just made that assumption. BfT shows again that they will try to hook onto anything to try and make a negative point. Now that I look at the credits I see it was Harold Moss. Fair enough ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/125 "2004-06-18T12:44:31Z")
I also don’t understand what advantage making people believe that it was from the SP guys would have 😕 It stands as a funny and entertaining part of the movie. Taking the piss out of the fear that some feel. It’s a mistake made by lots of people kinda like they way most people think the line “Play it again Sam” actually appears in Casablanca. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/126 "2004-06-18T12:50:32Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > I also don’t understand what advantage making people believe that it was from the SP guys would have 😕 You’re kidding, right? Compare “Random animator friend of mine put together this piece for me.” and “Hey, kids! The animators of the most popular cartoon show since the Simpsons, renowned for their outspoken political stances, agree with me sufficiently to produce an animated short for my movie! Buy my DVD!” Not saying Moore intended this outcome, though - if he wanted to make that implication, it could’ve been set up a little better. For what it’s worth, I found the animation style very dissimilar to South Park… but the voice talent somewhat similar. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/127 "2004-06-18T13:02:07Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > You’re kidding, right? > > Compare “Random animator friend of mine put together this piece for me.” and “Hey, kids! The animators of the most popular cartoon show since the Simpsons, renowned for their outspoken political stances, agree with me sufficiently to produce an animated short for my movie! Buy my DVD!” > > Not saying Moore intended this outcome, though - if he wanted to make that implication, it could’ve been set up a little better. Well you’d be silly if you did say it was intended as I’ve seen absolutely no evidence of him ever using the animation to sell the movie other than show a tiny clip in the trailer which was about a second long. I bought my ticket and the DVD because I enjoy Moore’s work not because of any animation. I don’t even remember if I knew there was an animation in it before I went to see it in the cinema. [http://www.apple.com/trailers/mgm/bowling\_for\_columbine/medium.html](http://www.apple.com/trailers/mgm/bowling_for_columbine/medium.html) Anyway this is a silly hijack. I’ll stop now. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/128 "2004-06-18T13:15:06Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > The South Park guys had nothing to do with the animation, though that’s a mistaken impression many seem to get from the film, and one that BowlingForTruth seems to think Moore wanted to convey. That’s because the “Bowling for Truth” webmaster will grasp at any straw, no matter how flimsy, to paint Moore as a liar. That’s the sort of behavior some might consider _dishonest_, although I’m inclined to consider it merely delusional. It’s not really lying if your grip on reality is fragile, and “Bowling for Truth” doesn’t strike me as the work of a healthy mind. I mean, setting aside the content entirely, the writing quality alone is disturbingly bad. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/129 "2004-06-18T13:18:31Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > That’s because the “Bowling for Truth” webmaster will grasp at any straw, no matter how flimsy, to paint Moore as a liar. That’s the sort of behavior some might consider _dishonest_, although I’m inclined to consider it merely delusional. It’s not really lying if your grip on reality is fragile, and “Bowling for Truth” doesn’t strike me as the work of a healthy mind. I mean, setting aside the content entirely, the writing quality alone is disturbingly bad. Okay. What’s your point? Is there something here I’m supposed to respond to? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/130 "2004-06-18T13:35:15Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Okay. What’s your point? Is there something here I’m supposed to respond to? What was your point in bringing up “Bowling for Truth” (again) and its wacky claims? What sort of response did you expect to get? ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/131 "2004-06-18T13:48:17Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Because his point is that both the KKK and NRA gained their power because of the level of _fear_ in the population. Which, in case you didn’t notice, was the main argument throughout BfC. The NRA was formed for fear of what? The NRA was founded to promote marksmanship, safety, firearms education and competitions in hunting and the shooting sports, nothing less and nothing more. It was only with the proliferation of gun restrictions starting with the 1968 Gun Control Act (almost 100 hears later) that the NRA membership began lobbying efforts. The NRA’s Institute for Legislative Action (it’s lobbying arm) was created in 1972 in response to the 1968 Act. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/132 "2004-06-18T13:49:56Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > What was your point in bringing up “Bowling for Truth” (again) and its wacky claims? What sort of response did you expect to get? It’s already been mentioned, so I didn’t “bring it up” - also, yojimbo was one of the people, if I recall correctly, denouncing BfT as completely without value in the last thread, and so I wished to point out that he’d formed a mistaken impression of Bowling for Columbine that was exactly concident with one BfT said Moore was trying to promote. You’ll note that I’ve stated several times that I disagree with the site’s assertion on that score. So your snipe was purposeless. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/133 "2004-06-18T15:08:37Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > It’s already been mentioned, so I didn’t “bring it up” - also, yojimbo was one of the people, if I recall correctly, denouncing BfT as completely without value in the last thread, As it happens, you do not recall correctly. > [@](#): > > - > > and so I wished to point out that he’d formed a mistaken impression of Bowling for Columbine that was exactly concident with one BfT said Moore was trying to promote. \*An irrelevant point even if **yojimbo** had claimed the site was completely without value, unless Moore actually _was_ trying to promote that mistaken impression. > [@](#): > > - > > You’ll note that I’ve stated several times that I disagree with the site’s assertion on that score. \*No, you haven’t. I just searched through this whole three-page thread to be sure, and the closest you’ve come is “Not saying Moore intended this outcome, though - if he wanted to make that implication, it could’ve been set up a little better.” That’s not actually disagreeing, it’s merely expressing unwillingness to _support_ the claim. I’m willing to take your word for it that you do in fact disagree with the site on this point, but don’t tell me I should “note” something you never said once. > [@](#): > > - > > So your snipe was purposeless. \*My purpose was to express my view that the site you mentioned is the work of someone who’s got no business setting himself up as a representative of the “Truth”. I think it served that purpose quite well. It probably won’t bring about my secondary objective of convincing the SDMB membership at large never to cite that moronic webpage again, but my primary mission was accomplished. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/134 "2004-06-18T15:30:23Z")
In fairness my main point in the other thread was that **CandidGamera** was using the BS on BfT as a springboard to criticise BfC without actually watching the movie. A situation that has now changed as **CandidGamera** has watched it now. I do find it very funny that you use a biased site with strained logic to point out the bias and strained logic of something else. Getting your knickers in a twist about one and holding the other up as a great source for material. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/135 "2004-06-18T15:36:49Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > As it happens, you do not recall correctly. Perhaps not. > [@](#): > > An irrelevant point even if **yojimbo** had claimed the site was completely without value, unless Moore actually _was_ trying to promote that mistaken impression. Not at all. The point is that while many seemed to dismiss the site because of tangential rants and poor writing and design, it does raise some interesting questions about Moore’s tactics. > [@](#): > > No, you haven’t. I just searched through this whole three-page thread to be sure, and the closest you’ve come is “Not saying Moore intended this outcome, though - if he wanted to make that implication, it could’ve been set up a little better.” That’s not actually disagreeing, it’s merely expressing unwillingness to _support_ the claim. I’m willing to take your word for it that you do in fact disagree with the site on this point, but don’t tell me I should “note” something you never said once. Well, I suppose I can’t expect you to remember the other thread perfectly, as I don’t either, but I mentioned my disagreement with the South Park point more explicitly in my post just after watching BfC. I pointed out, in fact, that the animation style was quite dissimilar… Oh… Wait! > [@CandidGamera](#): > > For what it’s worth, I found the animation style very dissimilar to South Park… Apparently, I _did_ mention it in this thread. So when I state I hold an opposite belief to the site’s author on that point, that’s not disagreement enough for you? Whatever. > [@](#): > > My purpose was to express my view that the site you mentioned is the work of someone who’s got no business setting himself up as a representative of the “Truth”. I think it served that purpose quite well. It probably won’t bring about my secondary objective of convincing the SDMB membership at large never to cite that moronic webpage again, but my primary mission was accomplished. Well, perhaps next time it would be best not to use a quote from myself to boot-strap the snipe, and just let it stand on its own. The guy who runs BfT is a bit rabid. Doesn’t mean there aren’t some solid points amidst the chaff. Of course, I think I said the same thing about Moore - there are bits of truth there, but it takes some digging. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/136 "2004-06-18T15:40:51Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > In fairness my main point in the other thread was that **CandidGamera** was using the BS on BfT as a springboard to criticise BfC without actually watching the movie. > > A situation that has now changed as **CandidGamera** has watched it now. > > I do find it very funny that you use a biased site with strained logic to point out the bias and strained logic of something else. Getting your knickers in a twist about one and holding the other up as a great source for material. Hey, at least BfT has a focus. But, as I pointed out just now in replying to Lamia, I mentioned that I had issues with the site as a whole, but found it had useful tidbits. The same with Moore. The difference is A.) Moore’s profiteering from his distortions and B.) I hear people talking of Moore sometime’s like he’s the second coming of Abraham Lincoln. So I use the good tidbits from one bad source to try and fight back the tide of people relying on another bad source. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/137 "2004-06-18T15:53:48Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > The difference is A.) Moore’s profiteering from his distortions Nope he’s profiting because he makes entertaining movies. What are you some sort of Commie 😉 Moore has made the two most successful documentaries of all time, soon to be 3 most likely thanks in part to people like the ones that run BfT. > [@](#): > > and B.) I hear people talking of Moore sometimes like he’s the second coming of Abraham Lincoln. Hey just because some people are fucking idiots doesn’t mean you have to balance them out. Just laugh at the dipshits. > [@](#): > > So I use the good tidbits from one bad source to try and fight back the tide of people relying on another bad source. Bulshit. Show me a thread that has people using BfC facts in a positive sense. Show me people linking to facts from BfC in debates unrelated to whether Moore’s a liar or not. The only time I’ve seen people talk about the facts in BfC is to defend the movie against the type of ill thought out dross on sites like BfT. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/138 "2004-06-18T15:58:40Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Bulshit. Show me a thread that has people using BfC facts in a positive sense. Show me people linking to facts from BfC in debates unrelated to whether Moore’s a liar or not. > > The only time I’ve seen people talk about the facts in BfC is to defend the movie against the type of ill thought out dross on sites like BfT. I’m not specifically talking about SDMB people. I’d guess there are some out there ready to swallow Moore’s films as undiluted gospel, but the yokels that I’ve observed actually speaking of BfC as revelatory were local co-workers. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/139 "2004-06-18T16:10:37Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Apparently, I _did_ mention it in this thread. So when I state I hold an opposite belief to the site’s author on that point, that’s not disagreement enough for you? Whatever. Considering the way you’ve been willing to nitpick Moore’s quotes, I’m surprised you would have the nerve to suggest that “I found the animation style very dissimilar to South Park…” (you snipped the part where you say the voices _are_ similar) is equivelant to “I don’t believe that Moore intended to deceive people into thinking that the creators of _South Park_ did the animation for him.” > [@](#): > > \*Well, perhaps next time it would be best not to use a quote from myself to boot-strap the snipe, and just let it stand on its own. \*You were the one citing the page. If you don’t like people responding to that, stop doing it. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240/140 "2004-06-18T16:13:10Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > I’m not specifically talking about SDMB people. I’d guess there are some out there ready to swallow Moore’s films as undiluted gospel, but the yokels that I’ve observed actually speaking of BfC as revelatory were local co-workers. Fair enough. I can see why some people would find it “revelatory” without buying the whole thing. My mother for instance found it very informative and entertaining. She took some of it with a grain of salt eg. “There’s no way everyone in Canada leave their door open” but as someone who has little to no interest in international affairs and the gun debate in the US she found it interesting and very funny in places. She was crying during the footage of the massacre itself which was news to her as she hadn’t heard about it before. She also didn’t know anything about the US’s darker side when it came to foreign policy. I did my best telling her some of it but she kinda lost interest halfway through and went off to make some tea. Mothers you gotta love’em 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-liar-why/250240.md?page=8)