# Michael Moore- more than just a pretty face **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 23, 2003, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-more-than-just-a-pretty-face/197228 "2003-08-23T22:21:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![w0rdsmith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a698b9/32.png) [@w0rdsmith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/w0rdsmith)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-more-than-just-a-pretty-face/197228/61 "2003-08-27T07:56:17Z")
this film along with the movie “The Big One”, both of which i downloaded illegally from a p2p program… 🙂 … made me think about how f’ed up America is. The Big One, showed all these corporations that are making millions/billions of profits… and are taking their jobs to Mexico, while closing down successful plants in America [in order to stay competitive] Bowling… made me realize that damn… Canada has very little crime. It also solidified my stance, that if George W Shrub is elected pres for a second term, Im moving there. [Im learning the Canadian National Anthem as we speak… “Oh CAN-A-DA!”…thats all I know so far…] Moore does pick topics that people need to hear about. His next movie is about how Poppy Bush and Poppy Bin Laden have been friends for a couple decades and have funded and founded projects together. [see Carlyle Group :: scroll down on page to The Bush-Bin Laden Money Connection](http://www.bushnews.com/bushmoney.htm/#the%20Bush) His next documentary due to be released sometime next year, will certainly turn some heads. Should be fun. Enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![Duderdude2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/cdc98d/32.png) [@Duderdude2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duderdude2)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-more-than-just-a-pretty-face/197228/62 "2003-08-27T07:57:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*And the point you missed is that since it was the members of the Academy that hands out those little trophies, it’s _their_ definition of what constitutes a “documentary” that counts for the “Best Documentary” Oscar. \*\* It’s too bad I never referenced the award it won at the Oscars. Now if you’re quite done arguing points I never made, I’ll be on my way. ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-more-than-just-a-pretty-face/197228/63 "2003-08-27T08:29:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by w0rdsmith \* > **this film along with the movie “The Big One”, both of which i downloaded illegally from a p2p program… 🙂** Do scroll down to **Arnold Winkelreid** ’s [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=106617) dated 06-03-2003. ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-more-than-just-a-pretty-face/197228/64 "2003-08-27T10:22:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Troy McClure SF \* > \*\*Do scroll down to **Arnold Winkelreid** ’s [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=106617) dated 06-03-2003. \*\* I don’t see the problem. He said he got a movie from a P2P program. He didn’t explain how, didn’t give any URLs, and didn’t encourage others to do the same. Hey I jaywalked today, scold me now. :rolleyes: UnuMondo ---
**Author:** ![Anniee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@Anniee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anniee)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-more-than-just-a-pretty-face/197228/65 "2003-08-27T11:05:07Z")
[http://www.rachellucas.com/](http://www.rachellucas.com/) Rachel has an awesome informed rant about Bowling for bullsh\*\* on August 22; scroll down to see it. Of course I quite love her blog and if you do a search on Michael Moore you will find tons of fun stuff that I’ve enjoyed the heck out of reading. Enjoy 🙂 (Oh yeah she’s not a Republican either.) ---
**Author:** ![refusal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac91a4/32.png) [@refusal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/refusal)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-more-than-just-a-pretty-face/197228/66 "2003-08-27T11:05:39Z")
A documentary shouldn’t contain editorialising?If anyone can find a documentary film that doesn’t take a stance on its subject matter I’d be very surprised (and I’d wonder why they bothered to make it). Of course, about 50% of best documentary Oscar winners are about the Holocaust, where failing to present a balanced view of Hitler’s faults and achievements is unlikely to be censured, but aside from that we’ve seen recent Oscar Best Documentary winners about such topics as the black Civil Rights Movement (A Time For Justice), the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (One Day In September), police brutality (Murder on a Sunday Afternoon), the invasion of Panama (The Panama Deception), and industrial unrest (American Dream). None of which was exactly impartial. So before people start acting all knowledgeable about documentary filmmaking, I recommend you actually watch some documentaries. And Behind The Music does not count. ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-more-than-just-a-pretty-face/197228/67 "2003-08-27T13:12:36Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by Duderdude2_ > [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) defines “Documentary” as “presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film”. Bowling for Columbine defies both of these conventions, and thus by definition is not a documentary. Well, we must certainly not misrepresent or distort facts! Like this one! I searched for “documentary” on [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com). I returned [this page](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=documentary). Yep, it has your definition of documentary on it. Only problem is, it appears as this: > [@](#): > > doc·u·men·ta·ry > _adj._ > Consisting of, concerning, or based on documents. > Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film. Now, Michael Moore’s documentary, is not an adjective documentary. It is a _noun_ documentary. And the definition for that? From the same page: > [@](#): > > _n. pl._ **doc·u·men·ta·ries** > A work, such as a film or television program, presenting political, social, or historical subject matter in a factual and informative manner and often consisting of actual news films or interviews accompanied by narration. Which looks a lot like “Bowling For Columbine.” I’ll also mention that dictionaries do not, by any stretch, provide “the factual, actual definition.” They are helpful in ascertaining a definition of a word, but are not suitable at all for deciding more complex things like whether a film belongs in a particular category or not. They are not official guardians of word definition. > [@](#): > > _originally posted by Lamar Mundane_ > It might be ironic if it were true. You see, I live here. I was here when Columbine happened. I know all about the NRA meeting that happened shortly after. Maybe you are unaware that meetings of this size are scheduled four or five years in advance, not two weeks before. Yes it also says right here that “[Under its bylaws and New York state law, the NRA must hold an annual meeting.](http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0422nra3.shtml)” It doesn’t mean that if they really wanted to, they could have got their heads out of their own gun-loving arses and postponed the meeting. They had 7 months to find a new place for it. Not difficult. > [@](#): > > The NRA and all associated with it (at that meeting) said and did nothing disrespectful at that time. It was an extremely abbreviated and low key event, with many events cancelled out of respect for those mourning. I happen to think that the NRA in general are a bunch of raving lunatics, but in this case they are being unfairly criticized, thanks to Michael Moore. > > Going back to Maci’s comment: > > > [@](#): > > > > If I had just seen the Charlton Heston footage alone, I would have agreed with you, but having seen the footage of Heston at the NRA meeting in Denver just after Columbine… > > there is a clear implication here that Heston said something at the Denver meeting that was outrageous. You have said that the documentary makes it clear that his combative remarks were not made at that meeting, so how do you explain the impression left on this viewer? The only words that were not spoken at that meeting from this segment were “from my cold dead hands.” It was clear in the film that these words were not spoken at the Denver meeting. Heston’s words at the Denver meeting, were, however, inflammatory, both in Moore’s edited version and the complete transcript. He says the mayor has asked them “not to come” to which there is a loud booing from NRA members. It is clear what _they_ think of the mayor. Heston then proceeds to basically say “well, fuck him.” In the complete transcipt, Heston wraps this up in platitudes, Moore removes the fluff. ---
**Author:** ![Anniee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@Anniee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anniee)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-more-than-just-a-pretty-face/197228/68 "2003-08-27T13:21:59Z")
Looking at the Academy definition of “documentary”, I think the words “non fiction” pretty much leave Bowling for Bullsh\*\* out of the running. Too bad it was presented (falsely) as non fiction and some actually believed it. Can’t expect much more out of Hollywood boneheads, most couldn’t make it through a founding document on their own anyway right? ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-more-than-just-a-pretty-face/197228/69 "2003-08-27T14:08:58Z")
> [@](#): > > _gex gex_ > It doesn’t mean that if they really wanted to, they could have got their heads out of their own gun-loving arses and postponed the meeting. They had 7 months to find a new place for it. Not difficult. > > \<\\> > Your point being? Maci appears to understand the situation correctly. The Columbine shootings occured on April 20, 1999. The NRA held their meeting on May 1, 1999: Well, which was it? 7 months or 11 days? Of course, on some planets, the months could be a day and a half long, so, “removing the fluff”, you are technically correct. ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-more-than-just-a-pretty-face/197228/70 "2003-08-27T15:11:29Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by Lamar Mundane_ > Well, which was it? 7 months or 11 days? > > Of course, on some planets, the months could be a day and a half long, so, “removing the fluff”, you are technically correct. The Columbine shootings occured 20/04/99. The NRA meeting occurred 01/05/99. It was claimed that the NRA, by law, had to have this meeting, as they need to have a meeting once a year. If they had postponed the meeting of 01/05/99, they would have had _eight_ (not seven - my maths was faulty) months to find a new meeting place and hence remain within the law. I’m not only technically correct, I’m all correct. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-more-than-just-a-pretty-face/197228/71 "2003-08-27T15:26:05Z")
Correct, maybe, but also divorced from reality. Having a national conference like that means often booking years in advance–meaning a last-minute backout would’ve meant eating the loss of a reneged contract and trying to find a last-minute replacement. The NRA already did that by cancelling a lot of their smaller Denver functions–they weren’t about to lose even more. Also, it means telling your thousands of attendees (many who are probably using their own vacation time) that they have to cancel their airplane tickets, hotel reservations, and other largely non-refundable conference expenses. Anyone with even an iota of experience with large-scale event-planning knows that this is near-impossible to do. I am no fan of the NRA’s agenda or political position, but they went above-&-beyond in cancelling as much as they did in Colorado that year. To expect them to completely cancel and relocate in such a short period of time is totally unrealistic. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-more-than-just-a-pretty-face/197228/72 "2003-08-27T15:53:12Z")
Having worked in hotels for years and years, I can guarantee that it would have cost the NRA megabucks to cancel their Denver appearance. They had reserved banquet facilities, hundreds if not thousands of hotel rooms, and contracted for tens of thousands in food service; they’d have been billed for all of this and wouldn’t have had the budget to go elsewhere. Plus, vendors are a major part of NRA meetings and they derive a good part of their income from these major shows\*. There are very few groups, liberal or conservative, who can afford to take a six-figure hit over a matter of principal. \*The weirdest weekend I ever worked in a hotel was in Columbus, GA, ca. 1990. There were two conventions in town: an NRA regional meeting and a Star Trek convention. The hotel I was staying at had the banquet rooms for Trek and guests from both conventions (including George Takei, whom I’ve met a disproportionate number of times- he’s the cheapest of the Trek cast to book [$2,000 last time I checked] and I think he does about 4,000 conventions annually). Not to indulge in stereotypes, but you didn’t exactly have to ask which group anybody was with (“M16s to the left, phasers to the right…”) ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-more-than-just-a-pretty-face/197228/73 "2003-08-27T17:45:58Z")
So the NRA held a meeting after the Columbine shootings. Excuse me, but so what? A couple of kids who played too many video games and listened to too much Marilyn Manson decide to murder their classmates, and this somehow has something to do with a law-abiding group that supports the 2nd Ammendment? Were Dylan Klebold and Eric (?) Harris members of the NRA? Michael Moore is an idiot. If “Bowling For Columbine” can win an Oscar then why the hell wasn’t “This Is Spinal Tap” nominated for Best Documentary? ---
**Author:** ![Anniee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@Anniee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anniee)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-more-than-just-a-pretty-face/197228/74 "2003-08-27T17:48:31Z")
But you KNOW Lockheed makes BOMBS Stephe! Whaaaaa! 😃 Oh yeah, they don’t. Silly me. Well said anyway 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-more-than-just-a-pretty-face/197228/75 "2003-08-27T18:07:45Z")
**Stephe96** and **Anniee** , I’m just curious, and please don’t take this the wrong way. Did you see this film? ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-more-than-just-a-pretty-face/197228/76 "2003-08-27T18:27:48Z")
ACHERNAR, No, I wouldn’t waste money on anything Michael Moore produces. But so what? I wouldn’t care if the NRA held a meeting in Denver the day AFTER the Columbine shootings. There simply isn’t a connection there to be made. Did Charlton Heston shoot anyone? Was anyone shot at the NRA meeting? Michael Moore is a left-wing hysteric…and I’m a fairly liberal person myself. Clever film-editing can make connections between two totally unrelated idea. Hmmmm. Give me footage of planes hitting the World Trade Center and I’ll splice it in with footage of Moore cheering at a post-9/11 Laker’s game. Well…he WAS cheering after 9/11 happened, wasn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![greck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7ab992/32.png) [@greck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greck)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-more-than-just-a-pretty-face/197228/77 "2003-08-27T19:14:48Z")
I admire the guy’s courage. The Documentary was slanted, I think we all new that going into the theater. I personally wanted more gun bashing, but more for my own entertainment than anything else. The most telling piece of the movie wasn’t the Heston “cold dead hands” quote, it was the “the good white people who founded this country” quote. I rewound that twice and even enabled the subtitles on my DVD to make sure I heard that one correctly. Moore showed incredible discipline laying off that one. I think the guy did some inquiry, came to a conclusion, documented the process, and went about it boldly; which I respect. He may be wrong, he definitely was biased (albeit not as much as I expected) but he put together one of the best films I’ve seen all year. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-more-than-just-a-pretty-face/197228/78 "2003-08-27T19:25:31Z")
GRECK, Who do YOU think founded this country? ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-more-than-just-a-pretty-face/197228/79 "2003-08-27T20:02:17Z")
**Stephe96** - This is Café Society. In here we discuss the arts. May I suggest you take your political views to the correct forum - GD or the Pit. Not having seen the movie makes your driveby less than becoming. ---
**Author:** ![Anniee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@Anniee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anniee)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-more-than-just-a-pretty-face/197228/80 "2003-08-27T20:14:10Z")
You’ve been dismissed 🙂 Wondered when that was coming. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-more-than-just-a-pretty-face/197228.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-more-than-just-a-pretty-face/197228.md?page=5)