# Michael Moore takes Ground Zero responders to Cuba **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 22, 2007, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190 "2007-04-22T17:02:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2007, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/181 "2007-06-24T23:23:49Z")
Interesting that said cite does not offer a linky-poo, but only advises that you can find the information on the back cover of his book. On the other hand, he’s affiliated with [FrontPage.com](http://FrontPage.com), and, well, really, where else do you go to get straight, non-partisan facts? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/182 "2007-06-25T01:17:48Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Interesting that said cite does not offer a linky-poo, but only advises that you can find the information on the back cover of his book. On the other hand, he’s affiliated with [FrontPage.com](http://FrontPage.com), and, well, really, where else do you go to get straight, non-partisan facts? [/QUOTE] The back cover of the book shows Moore’s Schedule D of Short-term Capital Gains and Losses, with his Halliburton purchase clearly listed, and Moore’s signature at the bottom. Moore hasn’t sued him, so I’m assuming it wasn’t forged. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/183 "2007-06-25T01:28:14Z")
Well, yeah, name like Michael Moore, sure couldn’t be two of those. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/184 "2007-06-25T01:38:03Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Well, yeah, name like Michael Moore, sure couldn’t be two of those. [/QUOTE] As I said, why wouldn’t Moore have sued him if it wasn’t really his signature? ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/185 "2007-06-25T01:42:49Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] The back cover of the book shows Moore’s Schedule D of Short-term Capital Gains and Losses, with his Halliburton purchase clearly listed, and Moore’s signature at the bottom. Moore hasn’t sued him, so I’m assuming it wasn’t forged. [/QUOTE] Can random strangers walk in and request portions of others’ tax returns now? That’s scary. How did he get hold of this document? ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/186 "2007-06-25T01:46:49Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] As I said, why wouldn’t Moore have sued him if it wasn’t really his signature? [/QUOTE] I would say the DNFTT principle. It would have given Schweizer too much attention. I don’t see a reference to this (possibly invented)\* issue in the past year and a half. - I mean seriously, if hack writers with opinions the president’s party favors are getting your tax return handed to them to defame you, what point is there in going to the courts? You’ll just give your enemy a pulpit and lose in a corrupt system. Or it could be a forgery, or some other Michael Moore. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/187 "2007-06-25T01:58:48Z")
[QUOTE=scotandrsn] Can random strangers walk in and request portions of others’ tax returns now? That’s scary. How did he get hold of this document? [/QUOTE] I’d imagine that since it’s for his foundation, that it may be a matter of public record (since it’s not-for-profit). [QUOTE=scotandrsn] I would say the DNFTT principle. It would have given Schweizer too much attention. I don’t see a reference to this (possibly invented)\* issue in the past year and a half. - I mean seriously, if hack writers with opinions the president’s party favors are getting your tax return handed to them to defame you, what point is there in going to the courts? You’ll just give your enemy a pulpit and lose in a corrupt system. Or it could be a forgery, or some other Michael Moore. [/QUOTE] I guess all of those are possibilities. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/188 "2007-06-25T02:00:01Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] The back cover of the book shows Moore’s Schedule D of Short-term Capital Gains and Losses, with his Halliburton purchase clearly listed, and Moore’s signature at the bottom. Moore hasn’t sued him, so I’m assuming it wasn’t forged. [/QUOTE] This is not a cite. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/189 "2007-06-25T02:00:47Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] This is not a cite. Sorry. [/QUOTE] OK, if you say so. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/190 "2007-06-25T02:01:29Z")
Why should I care about Mike Moores character flaws? He’s not kin to me, not asking to borrow money. He’s presenting a case, a case I can check for veracity. Isn’t that the point? Its kind of like Al Gore and GW, if he’s telling me the truth, I could give a rat’s ass if he carpets his floors with baby harp seal pelts. That he personally harvested. With a chain saw. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/191 "2007-06-25T02:09:50Z")
There doesn’t seem to be any corroborating source at all for this story than world nut daily and similar sites. I’m calling bullshit on it. One reason for Moore not to sue is that he doesn’t have any damages from it. If the smear has not hurt him in any way or cost him any money, then there’s nothing to recover. Plus there’s no reason to give this jack-off, Schweizer, any more publicity. Anyway, even this highly dubious claim is only about his foundation, not him personally. Also, even if Michael Moore was hypothetically proven to be a hypocrite that doesn’t make him wrong. This still amounts to an evasive _ad hominem_ attack designed to divert attention away from the truth of his message. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/192 "2007-06-25T02:49:44Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] There doesn’t seem to be any corroborating source at all for this story than world nut daily and similar sites. I’m calling bullshit on it. One reason for Moore not to sue is that he doesn’t have any damages from it. If the smear has not hurt him in any way or cost him any money, then there’s nothing to recover. Plus there’s no reason to give this jack-off, Schweizer, any more publicity. [/QUOTE] The thing is, I just don’t believe that Moore has never purchased stock. He claims to keep his money in a savings account. Seriously, he would have to be the world’s biggest idiot to keep the kind of money he has in savings, and not invest it. It’s just not reasonable to believe that he would do such a thing. > [@](#): > > Anyway, even this highly dubious claim is only about his foundation, not him personally. A foundation that he runs. > [@](#): > > Also, even if Michael Moore was hypothetically proven to be a hypocrite that doesn’t make him wrong. This still amounts to an evasive _ad hominem_ attack designed to divert attention away from the truth of his message. I think, though, that this kind of hypocrisy speaks to what he really believes. I think a message is suspect when the preaching of it earns the messenger millions of dollars, and then he is also found not to live the message he is preaching. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/193 "2007-06-25T03:03:56Z")
You are aware, I trust, that occasionally public figures are lied about? Take Dennis Kucinich, people always talk about what a wimp he is, but did you know he used to take Chuck Norris’ lunch money? When they were in college? That’s a true fact, I heard it from a guy who knows his sister! What does this mean? Why, that all of this vegan pacifism stuff from Dennis is just all bullshit, because no vegan pacifist wussy can kick Chuck Norris’ ass! I mean, Q.E.D.! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/194 "2007-06-25T04:13:03Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] The thing is, I just don’t believe that Moore has never purchased stock. He claims to keep his money in a savings account. Seriously, he would have to be the world’s biggest idiot to keep the kind of money he has in savings, and not invest it. It’s just not reasonable to believe that he would do such a thing. [/quote] I’ve never bought stock either. I don’t believe in it. Just because you can’t conceive of people having other priorities besides naked greed doesn’t mean such people don’t exist. > [@](#): > > A foundation that he runs. Irrelevant since it’s not his money. > [@](#): > > I think, though, that this kind of hypocrisy speaks to what he really believes. You haven’t demonstrated any hypocrisy. > [@](#): > > I think a message is suspect when the preaching of it earns the messenger millions of dollars, and then he is also found not to live the message he is preaching. The validity of a message has absolutely nothing to do with the character of the messenger. It is possible for the worst human beings to say things which are true. If you are aware of anything Moore says in his latest movie which isn’t true, pleae enlighten us. Claims that Michael Moore is a “hypocrite” are irrelevant even if true. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/195 "2007-06-25T13:04:56Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I’ve never bought stock either. I don’t believe in it. Just because you can’t conceive of people having other priorities besides naked greed doesn’t mean such people don’t exist. [/QUOTE] How do you define naked greed? If it is true that he doesn’t buy stock, then what does he do with all his money? If he hasn’t given away all but maybe $50,000 a year that he would need to live on at a modest level, then he’s as greedy as everyone else, stocks or no. If he doesn’t have an average-sized house, like all the rest of us live in, then he’s as greedy as everyone else. The idea that buying stocks is the only way to demonstrate greed is ridiculous. > [@](#): > > Irrelevant since it’s not his money. He manages it, and if he makes money to give away to struggling artists by investing in corporations, then he has no business going around saying that those corporations are evil. > [@](#): > > You haven’t demonstrated any hypocrisy. You don’t think that saying one thing, and doing another is hypocrisy? > [@](#): > > The validity of a message has absolutely nothing to do with the character of the messenger. It is possible for the worst human beings to say things which are true. If you are aware of anything Moore says in his latest movie which isn’t true, pleae enlighten us. Claims that Michael Moore is a “hypocrite” are irrelevant even if true. I agree with you, a message is either valid or it isn’t. But if one wants to convince people of a message, they would do better to walk the walk. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/196 "2007-06-25T13:43:05Z")
I should add to this that it really isn’t worth arguing about, because I haven’t really said anything at all about his message. I just said I like to rip on him, and I meant personally…I just can’t stand the guy. Has nothing to do with his message, actually. It’s kind of like some of those right-wing radio guys. I may agree with them in principle on some issues, but I can’t stand to listen to them because they are such blustering pompous asses. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/197 "2007-06-25T14:36:08Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] [Cite](http://www.peterschweizer.com/work5.htm) [/QUOTE] Ooh! The “liberal leftist elite”! By the author of [_Do As I Say (Not As I Do): Profiles In Liberal Hypocrisy_.](http://www.amazon.com/Do-As-Say-Not-Hypocrisy/dp/0767919025/ref=dp_return_1/104-6060729-8091140?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books&qid=1182781859&sr=8-1) (Someone wanting to “rip on” Michael Moore really needs to get some newer material.) ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/198 "2007-06-25T14:37:53Z")
[QUOTE=Bridget Burke] Ooh! The “liberal leftist elite”! By the author of [_Do As I Say (Not As I Do): Profiles In Liberal Hypocrisy_.](http://www.amazon.com/Do-As-Say-Not-Hypocrisy/dp/0767919025/ref=dp_return_1/104-6060729-8091140?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books&qid=1182781859&sr=8-1) [/QUOTE] I wasn’t trying to hide the guy’s credentials or bias…I did link to his own website, after all, which clearly touts the book. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/199 "2007-06-25T14:46:11Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] I wasn’t trying to hide the guy’s credentials or bias…I did link to his own website, after all, which clearly touts the book. [/QUOTE] I just wanted to shine a spotlight on him! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/200 "2007-06-25T17:32:02Z")
In other news, three of the Ground Zero responders who went to Cuba with Moore [are being investigated by the Treasury Department for violating the travel ban.](http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-11/1182659653165940.xml&coll=1) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190.md?page=11)