# Michael Moore takes Ground Zero responders to Cuba **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 22, 2007, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190 "2007-04-22T17:02:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/41 "2007-04-23T00:55:20Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] We have this weird system where most people (not all, but most) get their insurance from their employer, and they never see the payment. [/quote] You will, if you read the fine print on your pay stub. And I daresay that deduction – plus the difference between your salary as it is now and as it would be if your employer did not have to factor in its health-insurance contribution as a labor cost – is rather more than the amount of your income tax payment that would be attributable to universal health care if we had it. At least, the experience of Europe appears to bear that out. [QUOTE=John Mace] I suspect that a larger percentage of the voting public has good coverage than does the general public. [/QUOTE] 😕 Why are you drawing such a large distinction between the “voting public” and the “general public”? **Most** adults in this country can vote; felons and noncitizen residents, taken together, are a small minority of the general population. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/42 "2007-04-23T01:02:16Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] You will, if you read the fine print on your pay stub. And I daresay that deduction – plus the difference between your salary as it is now and as it would be if your employer did not have to factor in its health-insurance contribution as a labor cost – is rather more than the amount of your income tax payment that would be attributable to universal health care if we had it. At least, the experience of Europe appears to bear that out. [/quote] Yeah, it’s been a while since I had a job with insurance, but I seem to remember a spot on my paystub where it said how much insurance was costing. I was fairly certain this was deducted from what I would otherwise make, so its not so much that my employer was paying for insurance as they were automatically deducting it from my pay. > [@](#): > > 😕 Why are you drawing such a large distinction between the “voting public” and the “general public”? **Most** adults in this country can vote; felons and noncitizen residents, taken together, are a small minority of the general population. I think he means people who actually do vote, rather then those who can (but in most elections don’t bother). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/43 "2007-04-23T01:08:48Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] You will, if you read the fine print on your pay stub. And I daresay that deduction – plus the difference between your salary as it is now and as it would be if your employer did not have to factor in its health-insurance contribution as a labor cost – is rather more than the amount of your income tax payment that would be attributable to universal health care if we had it. At least, the experience of Europe appears to bear that out. [/quote] Maybe. I’m not really trying to debate universal healthcare in this thread, but was just giving my impression as to why that issue never seems to get any real traction at the federal level. Also, it’s not clear that if we instituted universal healthcare, whether employers would give you all the money they now pay for insurance on your behalf. Things never seem to work out like that in the real world. > [@](#): > > 😕 Why are you drawing such a large distinction between the “voting public” and the “general public”? **Most** adults in this country can vote; felons and noncitizen residents, taken together, are a small minority of the general population. Congresscritters tend to not listen too much to people who don’t vote. And many of the polls that we see are of the general public, not the voting public. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/44 "2007-04-23T01:16:43Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Cuba’s, no. Canada’s, or even Britain’s, yes. [/QUOTE] So why isn’t Michael Moore taking people to Canada for free medical care? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/45 "2007-04-23T01:25:30Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] So why isn’t Michael Moore taking people to Canada for free medical care? [/QUOTE] See posts #19 and 32. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/46 "2007-04-23T01:28:31Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Castro also offered to send doctors to New Orleans to help out Hurricane Katrina victims, but W weren’t having none of it. [/QUOTE] And Hugo Chavez offered to give heating oil to poor people in the U.S., and was turned down. Because it was a PR stunt. Just like Castro’s. Remember, Castro and Chavez were willing to pull those resources from _their own people_, who are much, much poorer than even the lowest quintile in America. How does that fit your notion of social justice? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/47 "2007-04-23T01:34:30Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] See posts #19 and 32. [/QUOTE] Well, that and the fact that if he brought them to Canada for medical care, he’d have to pay for it. It’s free for people who live in Canada, not foreigners. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/48 "2007-04-23T01:36:45Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] And Hugo Chavez offered to give heating oil to poor people in the U.S., and was turned down. Because it was a PR stunt. Just like Castro’s. Remember, Castro and Chavez were willing to pull those resources from _their own people_, who are much, much poorer than even the lowest quintile in America. How does that fit your notion of social justice? [/QUOTE] So if we don’t get it, the Cuban/Venezuelan people will? That doesn’t match up with everything else you’ve said in this thread. Besides, Venezuelans need heating oil like Eskimos need air conditioners. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/49 "2007-04-23T01:37:25Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] Well, that and the fact that if he brought them to Canada for medical care, he’d have to pay for it. It’s free for people who live in Canada, not foreigners. [/QUOTE] Why do Canadians hate foreigners, Rick? 😉 **Sam** : Any chance you can answer the question I asked about your abortion statistics? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/50 "2007-04-23T01:39:39Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] So if we don’t get it, the Cuban/Venezuelan people will? That doesn’t match up with everything else you’ve said in this thread. Besides, Venezuelans need heating oil like Eskimos need air conditioners. [/QUOTE] You can use heating oil for other things, too, you know. And Venezuelans do need air conditioners. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/51 "2007-04-23T02:01:27Z")
Why not ask? You could ask the people who need heating oil if they would be willing to accept such assistance from such an aggressive and divisive figure as Chavez. You could make the case that the President of Venezuela is a destructive and dangerous force in international affairs, and sacrifices must be made to thwart him. Might point how poorly he fares in comparison to our own Leader. Maybe they would spurn his offer. I’d bet against it. Or maybe a New Orleans man who’s been treated like used toilet paper by his own government might scruple at his child being cared for by a doctor from - gasp! - a Communist regime! Again, probably not. Though I am heartened to see **Sam** analyze the situation in terms of working class solidarity. It shows considerable progress. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/52 "2007-04-23T02:40:33Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Why not ask? You could ask the people who need heating oil if they would be willing to accept such assistance from such an aggressive and divisive figure as Chavez. You could make the case that the President of Venezuela is a destructive and dangerous force in international affairs, and sacrifices must be made to thwart him. Might point how poorly he fares in comparison to our own Leader. Maybe they would spurn his offer. I’d bet against it. [/QUOTE] Do we block Venzuelan ships from docking in the US? If not, he could have donated oil regardless of whether or not Bush wanted him to. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/53 "2007-04-23T02:58:42Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Do we block Venzuelan ships from docking in the US? If not, he could have donated oil regardless of whether or not Bush wanted him to. [/QUOTE] I think he did, or is. CITGO (the state owned Ven. oil company) donates heating oil in New England and Chicago and probably other places in the US as well. Honestly I don’t see anything wrong with taking it. He likes the anti-US rhetoric, and his economic policies probably aren’t great in the long term for his country, but its not like he’s Hitler (did I just reverse Godwinize?) or anything . ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/54 "2007-04-23T03:16:29Z")
[QUOTE=Malodorous] I think he did, or is. CITGO (the state owned Ven. oil company) donates heating oil in New England and Chicago and probably other places in the US as well. Honestly I don’t see anything wrong with taking it. He likes the anti-US rhetoric, and his economic policies probably aren’t great in the long term for his country, but its not like he’s Hitler (did I just reverse Godwinize?) or anything . [/QUOTE] I don’t see anything wrong with taking it either. Besides, oil is a commodity, and it’s naive if you think you can not buy it from one producer and make a difference. It basically all goes into the same pot. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/55 "2007-04-23T03:36:30Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Why do Canadians hate foreigners, Rick? 😉 **Sam** : Any chance you can answer the question I asked about your abortion statistics? [/QUOTE] Sure. Actually, the numbers now appear worse than my original number: From [This cite:](http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/jun/06060205.html) > [@](#): > > Abortion was made legal in Cuba in 1965. Records show 67,277 abortions took place in 2004, the last year available for statistics. That number, however, does not include early-term abortions known as “menstrual regulation,” in which a child is aborted within the first few weeks of pregnancy. > > The procedure is excluded from Cuba’s recorded abortion rates. Menstrual regulations, or menstrual extractions, as they are more commonly called, are performed using suction aspiration to empty the womb when a menstrual period is delayed, frequently without performing a pregnancy test. If the woman is pregnant, the child will be aborted. > > The procedure rate for menstrual extractions was 36 per 1,000 women in 2004. Added to the current rate of abortion by other methods, reported at 20.9 abortions per 1,000 women, the total abortion rate for the country is a staggering 56.9 abortions per 1000 women, meaning that **59 percent of all pregnancies end in abortion.** > > The statistics are complicated by the fact that some menstrual extractions will not result in abortion, since some women will experience a delay in their period for reasons other than pregnancy. > > Excluding abortions carried out by menstrual extraction, records show 52.5 abortions for every 100 live births. I’ve found lots of anecdotal reports that Doctors in Cuba recommend termination of any high-risk pregnancies. Why? Because A) abortion is so common and accepted that it makes sense, and B) because Cuba tries to artificially inflate key metrics like infant mortality by rewarding doctors who hit goals set for them. From [this cite:](http://www.finlay-online.com/nicolasgutierrez/livinginsidecuba.htm) > [@](#): > > The importance of infant mortality is that it correlates with the overall health, education, nutrition, standard of living and well-being of the population. In Cuba’s case, this is not true. Cuban health services are organized and structured so that the resources, support, and services are directed to reach the facilities that must maintain a lower infant mortality (death from the time of birth to 12.0 months). Therefore, in Castro’s Cuba, life support may be artificially instituted and continued on an individual infant or a community to achieve a numerical goal in the infant mortality of a particular health sector or region. This is done without consideration to other health services that are rationed, denied, simply ignored, or blamed on the CIA, obscure reasons or the improperly called American embargo. While these excuses are made part of the propaganda, fundamental health issues such as the provision of the elements for public hygiene are not prioritized. Instead, priorities are given to the desired goals of the MINSAP, a lower infant mortality with bonuses and favors for those physicians and units that reach their goals. The article goes on to point out that infant mortality is a common ‘baseline’ statistic for health care because it tends to be a good indicator of overall care. But not in the case of Cuba, because Cuba games the statistics. For example, the mortality rate of children from age 1 to 4 is 11.8, which is 34% higher than in the U.S. Also, consider maternal mortality: > [@](#): > > Consider, for example, a health parameter linked to infant mortality, maternal mortality. The maternal mortality of Cuba in the last three years has been 26 to 33 deaths per 100,000 live births. This health statistic is not low despite the fact that Cuba has the lowest birth rate in Latin America (12.5 births per 1000 population). **Cuba’s maternal mortality figure is in fact 4 to 5 times greater than the equivalent parameter for the United States** (8.4). So… Cuba games the system to make the numbers look good by A) encouraging termination of high-risk pregnancies, B) casually aborting babies early when women stop menstruating, and C) throwing all their resources at infants to keep them alive until age 1, after which their deaths are no longer considered to be ‘infant mortality’. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/56 "2007-04-23T04:04:46Z")
**Sam** : Your cite needs a math course. 56.9 per 1,000 is 5.69%, not 59%. Looks like an anti-abortion, agenda driven web site, too, btw. I’m a bit confused, though, because they cite X number per “woman”, not per pregnant woman, so it’s hard to tell what they’re talking about. I’m assuming they mean per pregnancy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/57 "2007-04-23T04:15:01Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] Actually, the numbers now appear worse than my original number: [/QUOTE] The word you’re looking for is “better,” not “worse.” We Yanks could learn a thing or two about reproductive policy from them damn Cuban Commies. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/58 "2007-04-23T04:33:53Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] Sure. Actually, the numbers now appear worse than my original number: [/quote] Maybe, maybe not; the numbers in and of themselves don’t necessarily tell the whole story. I think you are jumping to conclusions about the reasons for the high abortion rate in Cuba. I have firsthand experience with Soviet health care; the Soviet Union was notorious for its high abortion rate. I haven’t seen any widespread allegations of forced abortions in the Soviet Union; however, the lack of available effective contraceptive methods and poor reproductive education led to huge numbers of unwanted pregnancies, which are far more likely to be aborted. (That, and well, people are much less likely to carry a pregnancy to term, given other options, if their living conditions suck. To name one example, the number of children per woman was much, much higher outside of major urban areas like Moscow and St. Petersburg, where couples didn’t necessarily have to wait years on end for apartments of their own, during which they often lived in miniscule apartments with their in-laws. Also, the birthrate in Russia in particular has nosedived since the collapse of the Soviet Union, and all the social and economic dislocation that caused.) So yeah, there were lots of abortions under Soviet socialized healthcare, but not because any government official was holding a gun to pregnant women’s heads. Yes, it sucks that anyone should have, much less feel the need to abort, an unwanted pregnancy (and I’m about as pro-choice as they come). But a woman deciding that abortion is the best of some really terrible alternatives is a far cry from forced abortion. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/59 "2007-04-23T04:46:23Z")
And then there’s the scent of fresh agenda in the air, for instance… > [@](#): > > …Castro has used these claims to justify all aspects of his 41 year rule by a single party and a single individual — himself… When the author is straining every nerve to give the appearance of well-sourced and statisticly sophisticated information, this sort of direct political judgement is a bit unnerving. It would be a bit like reading an abstract about say, breast cancer in America and coming across a line like “…of course, all of this serves the interests of George Bush and his health industry cronies…” Might be true, I might agree, but its presence is a bit jarring, the scent of agenda begins to hang heavy in the air… And this… > [@](#): > > …It is well recognized that mortality statistics do not depend solely on medical care. Issues such as nutrition, education and communication are considered important in achieving truly significant health statistics… Perfectly sensible. Our faith is restored, we are in the presence of sober and unbiased minds… > [@](#): > > …Therefore, unless Castro is planning to take over the economy, the schools, the agriculture, and the communications of Mississippi, how can he offer to lower this important health statistic through his “doctor diplomacy?”… Oh, my. Seems a bit unfair, don’t you think? Sets the bar a bit high. > [@](#): > > …But even if the graduates from Castro’s “doctor diplomacy” do go through the arduous passages reserved for FMG’s, how are the imprints of communist social indoctrination going to fit into the training programs offered in the U.S.?.. The “imprints” of “indoctrination”? You mean the doctor shines a light down your throat and instead of “Say Ahhh” its “Say Dictatorship of the Proletariat”? > [@](#): > > …Finally, the specific claim of Castro that he can lower the infant mortality rate in Mississippi implies a future control by Castro of health care, finances, education, nutrition, and communications in that State. Obviously, such claims must be denounced as delusional and their malicious implications rejected… I suppose we must. If Castro claims to be able to seize control of the State of Missisippi, he must be delusional. Hard to argue with that reasoning. Kinda scary as well. > [@](#): > > …Castro’s is a society that will likely turn them into revolutionaries looking for some “Mission Impossible” scheme in order to establish an elusive, egalitarian, socialist worker’s paradise that has never existed. Instead, it has forged chains on the people and a Hell on Earth wherever it has been established… Dr. Kildarro, Trotskyist Revolutionary Podiatrist. Dedicated to osteopathic medicine and world domination! ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190/60 "2007-04-23T13:40:18Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Put another way: I don’t know\* precisely\* how much of Cubas misery is directly attributable to the utterly senseless embargo, its effect on the price of sugar, and the effect of the price of sugar on certain well-connected Florida Republicans. Here’s a thought! Lets quit beating up on them, and see if it gets better! I’m betting “yes”. How about you? [/QUOTE] I’ll take that bet, I bet for no it doesn’t get any better. For years the US embargo was a non-issue because Cuba was heavily subsidized by the USSR, during those years if you wanted medicine you got family abroad to send it to you. Nothing has changed since the fall of the USSR. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-takes-ground-zero-responders-to-cuba/401190.md?page=4)