# Michael Moore tears CNN a new one **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 10, 2007, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143 "2007-07-10T01:25:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/181 "2007-07-12T18:23:22Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Not universally it doesn’t, and it’s the government’s job to protect the physical welfare of _all_ its citizens. [/quote] And government-run health care does not provide for all, either. Furthermore, government-run health care means taking property away from one group and giving to another. It also means forcibly preventing two people from making a voluntary exchange related to health care. It certainly violates a lot of the principles that I accept as being proper for a just government. > [@](#): > > It’s not a misinterpretation. Ananias held out on Peter. God struck him dead and Peter said “let that be a lesson, motherfuckers.” The counter-argument that he was murdered (by God) for the “lying,” not the cash just sounds disingenuous to me. It’s like when Republicans pretended the impeachment of Clinton wasn’t really about a blow job. I’m also not aare of any other instance inthe Bible where anyone is instantly struck dead just for lying. All human beings lie constantly. Why aren’t they all dropping dead all the time? Do you have to lie specifically to an apostle? A lie is only as significant as what’s being lied about and Ananias made the mistake of lying about MONEY. He was whacked for handing in a light envelope. Who’s kidding who? Now you seem to be deliberately misleading about what the passage says. It clearly says that Ananias was free to do with the property as he wished, but since he lied he sinned. And for that God struck him dead. Your reading of it does not agree with the text whatsoever. > [@](#): > > They’re scattered throughout this thread. “Give everything you own to the poor…have no thought for the morrow…give to anyone who asks…you can’t serve two masters…it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kindom of Heaven…” Again, it sounds like Jesus is telling Christians to be homeless. I don’t see any indication he thought His followers should live as communists. > [@](#): > > Then, of course, there’s Acts 4:32: > > _And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and soul: and not one of them said that aught of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 4:33And with great power gave the apostles their witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. 4:34For neither was there among them any that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 4:35and laid them at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto each, according as any one had need. 4:36And Joseph, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas (which is, being interpreted, Son of exhortation), a Levite, a man of Cyprus by race, 4:37having a field, sold it, and brought the money and laid it at the apostles’ feet._. Yes, the early followers agreed to do this. How does that make it mandatory on future followers? > [@](#): > > you keep saying these apostolic communities lived that way “voluntarily” as if that has anything to do with whether they were communistic. It is not necessary for communism to be involuntary. In fact, Marxist communism is SUPPOSED to be voluntary. You are trying to say that it is mandatory for Christians to live in a communist system. I’m simply saying that if Christians choose to do so, that’s great. But there is no support for your view that the early church leaders forced people to live a communist lifestyle. You are trying to score points against Christians by saying “you people don’t live like communists, so you are not following the Bible.” I am pointing out that your reading of the Bible is superficial. ---
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/182 "2007-07-12T19:08:42Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] It’s not a misinterpretation. Ananias held out on Peter. God struck him dead and Peter said “let that be a lesson, motherfuckers.” The counter-argument that he was murdered (by God) for the “lying,” not the cash just sounds disingenuous to me. [/QUOTE] **Acts 5:2-5:** 2With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet. 3 **Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.”** 5When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/183 "2007-07-12T19:14:11Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Probably? In what world do you live in which adding government to the issue decreases administrative overhead? In the real world, where adding not-for-profit government administration _and removing expensive for-profit multiple middlemen_ **does** frequently decrease administrative overhead. Example: [Heart Surgery Costs 83% More in U.S. Than in Canada, Study Says](http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000082&sid=a4J.ER8r4CrM&refer=canada) > [@](#): > > Americans pay 83 percent more for heart-bypass surgery than Canadians, with no difference in outcome, because of higher medicine and labor costs, according to a study in today’s issue [11 July 2005] of Archives of Internal Medicine. > > Researchers compared the results and costs of treating 12,017 patients undergoing coronary artery bypass graft surgery at five U.S. hospitals and four in Canada. The average bypass-procedure cost was $20,673 in the U.S. and $10,373 in Canada, before adjustments, researchers led by Mark J. Eisenberg of Jewish General Hospital in Montreal wrote in the study. The adjusted difference was about 83 percent. A similar coronary bypass operation performed in the UK National Health Service [is priced at £8,080 these days](http://society.guardian.co.uk/nhsplan/story/0,7991,1142598,00.html), or about US$16,400, which is still substantially less than the 2005 price of such an operation in the US. Take off your market-fundamentalist blinders, **Martin** , and look at the facts themselves. The facts show that government-run universal health-care systems generally **are** cheaper than the current US system. That conclusion may be heresy and anathema to market fundamentalists, but that’s not an excuse for denying the facts. > [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Providing medical care is the goal of people who run hospitals. Do you really think insurance is about providing medical care? In practice, it frequently is, because in our system, insurance companies are often the ones who determine what medical care gets provided. > [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Insurance companies would be failing to serve their customers if they paid out claims to people when the medical problem in question wasn’t covered. They also fail to serve the medical needs of the society in general when they deny coverage and care to people who need them. I’m not faulting the individual insurance companies for this (except when they deliberately give patients the runaround to avoid paying legitimate claims); they’re profit-making companies, and their commercial goal of making money has to outweigh their social purpose of enabling people to afford the medical care they need. What I’m faulting is the system as a whole, which as it stands is inefficient and incapable of adequately handling our health-care needs as a society. > [@Martin Hyde](#): > > However I think it is clear from the actions of our elected representatives that our society does not in fact think we need to move to universal health care coverage. Again, I think your partisanship is leading you to deny the facts. As **John Mace** (I think it was **John** ) pointed out somewhere earlier in this thread, several US states are moving toward universal health-care coverage systems, either single-payer or with public/private partnerships. Maine has already enacted such a statewide system, and a dozen or so other state legislatures have introduced similar bills. This is not a when-pigs-fly pipedream. This is happening now. It will take somewhat longer to work out such a system on a national level; according to **John** (I still think it was **John** ), the states are the natural laboratories for working out the mechanics of universal coverage, and the bulk of the transition will happen at the state level. And I think he’s right about that. But I think that the natural consequence will be that the federal government at some point will step in and to some extent standardize the patchwork of different state-level universal health-care plans. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/184 "2007-07-12T19:16:07Z")
[QUOTE=RiverRunner] **Acts 5:2-5:** 2With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet. 3 **Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.”** 5When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. [/QUOTE] I know what the passage says. I’m saying the author himself is being disingenuous. ETA, I also think this passage may be redacted. In any case, I see no difference between being killed for not coughing up every penny or being killed for lying about how many pennies you have. It’s a story designed to terrorize Christians out of holding out. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/185 "2007-07-12T19:30:03Z")
[QUOTE=Renob] And government-run health care does not provide for all, either [/quote] Yes it does. > [@](#): > > Furthermore, government-run health care means taking property away from one group and giving to another. So? > [@](#): > > It also means forcibly preventing two people from making a voluntary exchange related to health care. No it doesn’t. You can still pay through the nose for a private doctor if you want to. You can even pay extortionary prices for drugs if that makes you happy. Universal health care does not mean that private options have to be illegal, just that they no longer have to be necessary. > [@](#): > > Now you seem to be deliberately misleading about what the passage says. It clearly says that Ananias was free to do with the property as he wished, but since he lied he sinned. And for that God struck him dead. Your reading of it does not agree with the text whatsoever. I’m trying to say there is no difference between being killed for holding out and beinbg killed for lying about how much money you have. It amounts to the same message – don’t try to hold out or God will kill you. > [@](#): > > Again, it sounds like Jesus is telling Christians to be homeless. I don’t see any indication he thought His followers should live as communists. You’re not reading very carefully, then. Living without private property or class divisions is communism. Pure and simple. > [@](#): > > Yes, the early followers agreed to do this. How does that make it mandatory on future followers? I don’t think anything is mandatory. I’m just observing that modern Christians don’t follow the teachings of Jesus and don’t live like the original communities which were set up by his apostles. > [@](#): > > You are trying to say that it is mandatory for Christians to live in a communist system. I’m simply saying that if Christians choose to do so, that’s great. But there is no support for your view that the early church leaders forced people to live a communist lifestyle. You are trying to score points against Christians by saying “you people don’t live like communists, so you are not following the Bible.” I am pointing out that your reading of the Bible is superficial. What is your excuse for not giving everything you own to the poor? Do you give freely to anyone who asks? If not, why not? If I ask you for your coat will you give me your shirt as well? If not, why not? Even if you see these kinds of commands as injunctions to live ascetically (“homelessly”), as long as these ascetics live communally and share property in common then they’re living communistically by definition. ---
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/186 "2007-07-12T19:31:50Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I know what the passage says. I’m saying the author himself is being disingenuous. ETA, I also think this passage may be redacted. In any case, I see no difference between being killed for not coughing up every penny or being killed for lying about how many pennies you have. It’s a story designed to terrorize Christians out of holding out. [/QUOTE] Can’t say I agree with you on either assertion. No big surprise there, I suppose. At least you were civil about it. RR ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/187 "2007-07-12T19:32:40Z")
**Diogenes** : Do you think all Christians should accept the Bible as literal truth? Do you accept the Bible as an accurate record of history? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/188 "2007-07-12T19:37:00Z")
[QUOTE=Renob] I’m fine if people want to enter into some sort of socialistic arrangement to provide for their health care needs. I will not stop them from doing so. However, once they force me to go along with their plans, then I have a problem. Do what you want, but leave me to do what I want. [/QUOTE] Now, now **Renob**. Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s. (Or do you love mammon too much?) ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/189 "2007-07-12T19:43:53Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Yes it does. [/quote] Clearly you are unaware of the long wait for many services and the refusal to serve some deemed “too sick” that occur in many socialized medicine regimes. > [@](#): > > I’m trying to say there is no difference between being killed for holding out and beinbg killed for lying about how much money you have. It amounts to the same message – don’t try to hold out or God will kill you. You can’t see the difference between a) being told by someone to give them all your property and then killing you when you don’t or b) agreeing to sell your property and give all the proceeds to the church, and then lying about keeping some of the money and being struck dead? > [@](#): > > You’re not reading very carefully, then. Living without private property or class divisions is communism. Pure and simple. Interesting. I was unaware that the homeless were living according to both the wishes of Christ and Marx. > [@](#): > > What is your excuse for not giving everything you own to the poor? Do you give freely to anyone who asks? If not, why not? Because I’m an imperfect Christian. > [@](#): > > If I ask you for your coat will you give me your shirt as well? If not, why not? I don’t think you’d like the shirt I’m wearing right now. It’s kind of old and dirty. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/190 "2007-07-12T19:44:59Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] Now, now **Renob**. Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s. (Or do you love mammon too much?) [/QUOTE] Let’s define what is Caesar’s, first, and then I’ll render away. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/191 "2007-07-12T20:00:10Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] **Diogenes** : Do you think all Christians should accept the Bible as literal truth? [/quote] No, but I think they sort of need to accept the words specifically attributed to Jesus as authoritative. > [@](#): > > Do you accept the Bible as an accurate record of history? you know that I don’t, but Christians are expected to at least accept the basic historicity of the Gospels and of Acts. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/192 "2007-07-12T20:11:11Z")
[QUOTE=Renob] Clearly you are unaware of the long wait for many services and the refusal to serve some deemed “too sick” that occur in many socialized medicine regimes. [/quote] Clearly you are unware that these are canards. > [@](#): > > You can’t see the difference between a) being told by someone to give them all your property and then killing you when you don’t or b) agreeing to sell your property and give all the proceeds to the church, and then lying about keeping some of the money and being struck dead? No, I don’t. Let’s imagine I tell a homeless guy that I’m broke today but tomorrow I’ll give him my whole paycheck. When Tomorrow comes, I cash my check but I only give him half of it. I lie and tell him I’m giving him all of it. Does the homeless guy now have a right to kill me? Does it really make a difference if he kills me to rob me outright or kills me because I lied when I said I was giving him all my money? When I told him yesterday that I would give him my whole paycheck today, was I establishing a binding contract which gave him the right to take my life if he breeched it? In the Ananias story, you can substitute God for the bum on the street. The only difference beween God and the bum is that the bum actually needed some money. > [@](#): > > Interesting. I was unaware that the homeless were living according to both the wishes of Christ and Marx. Only if they intentionally abstain from owning private property and share whatever they have with anyone who asks. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/193 "2007-07-12T20:24:06Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] No, but I think they sort of need to accept the words specifically attributed to Jesus as authoritative. [/quote] Problem is, the guy spoke in parables and riddles and used all sorts of rhetorical devices to get his point across. When Jesus said if someone asks for your cloak, give him your shirt, too, did he really mean that literally or was he just saying that for emphasis? We honestly don’t know. > [@](#): > > you know that I don’t, but Christians are expected to at least accept the basic historicity of the Gospels and of Acts. Says who? We know for a fact that certain things were added into the Gospels to make them pack more punch, so to speak. If I were a Christian, I’d assume that Christ’s message started getting mangled as soon as he left his Apostles alone. Who knows why that passage got into Acts about someone being killed for not giving up all his property? It might just have been a way for the leaders at the time to keep people under their control. Religious leaders do that all the time, and Christianity is rife with examples. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/194 "2007-07-12T20:29:37Z")
[tap tap] 'Scuse me **John** , could you take a break from the politico-soteriological hijack (not that it’s not fascinating, mind you) for just a minute and remind me what and where it was you said about the development of state-level universal health-care plans? (Cf. post #183 above.) Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/195 "2007-07-12T20:39:18Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] [tap tap] 'Scuse me **John** , could you take a break from the politico-soteriological hijack (not that it’s not fascinating, mind you) for just a minute and remind me what and where it was you said about the development of state-level universal health-care plans? (Cf. post #183 above.) Thanks! [/QUOTE] Delete. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/196 "2007-07-12T20:49:46Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] Is this question directed to me? If so, it would depend on what the medical problem was. If it was something where I could easily pay for treatment myself, I’d probably rather be dealing with an American doctor in my native language and near my home. If it was anything expensive—which, with the way US health-care costs are these days, means pretty much anything at all—you can bet your booties I’d rather be over there talking to _le medecin_ in French! [/QUOTE] Indeed it was. And as expected, I got a sensible response from a rational person. TY. BTW, do you think you could take a crack at explaining “social democracy” as practiced in most the EU? Because even though I tried, reading the rest of the thread it seems to have gone right over the collective heads of those that still conflate any type of “ism” with the devil. Either that, or they simply don’t care to learn about what is currently happening in Europe. If you do – take a shot – good luck. And thanks again for your (measured and pragmatic) response. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/197 "2007-07-12T20:51:25Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] Again, I think your partisanship is leading you to deny the facts. As **John Mace** (I think it was **John** ) pointed out somewhere earlier in this thread, several US states are moving toward universal health-care coverage systems, either single-payer or with public/private partnerships. Maine has already enacted such a statewide system, and a dozen or so other state legislatures have introduced similar bills. This is not a when-pigs-fly pipedream. This is happening now. It will take somewhat longer to work out such a system on a national level; according to **John** (I still think it was **John** ), the states are the natural laboratories for working out the mechanics of universal coverage, and the bulk of the transition will happen at the state level. And I think he’s right about that. But I think that the natural consequence will be that the federal government at some point will step in and to some extent standardize the patchwork of different state-level universal health-care plans. [/QUOTE] Yes, that’s pretty much what I said. I’d emphasize that I just can’t see us getting anything like a European-style healthcare system through Congress. Maybe once enough states take the lead and get their own systems in place, there will be some way to roll them up into a national plan applying to all the states, but I’m still not clear on exactly how that would happen. What I see the federal government doing is diddling around at the edges, like they usually do. The last time we made radical changes to the way government provides services to the American people was the New Deal, and that was in response to a Depression. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/198 "2007-07-12T21:06:57Z")
**Kimstu** , never mind my appeal. I see that you’ve already spoon-fed the main notions in your post [183](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8773297&postcount=183). Honestly, I don’t quite ‘get’ the responses that follow. Of course, being European myself, no doubt it’s due to my inherent slowness and/or my need for a Nanny State to take care of me – due to the former deficit no doubt. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/199 "2007-07-12T21:17:11Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] In the real world, where adding not-for-profit government administration _and removing expensive for-profit multiple middlemen_ **does** frequently decrease administrative overhead. Example: [Heart Surgery Costs 83% More in U.S. Than in Canada, Study Says](http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000082&sid=a4J.ER8r4CrM&refer=canada) [/QUOTE] But that links says the additional cost is due to labor and medicine cost, not for-profit multiple middlemen. That was actually in the part you quoted. The cite about the cost in the UK didn’t give a reason for the cost discrepancy. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/200 "2007-07-12T21:52:43Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] But that links says the additional cost is due to labor and medicine cost, not for-profit multiple middlemen. That was actually in the part you quoted. The cite about the cost in the UK didn’t give a reason for the cost discrepancy. [/QUOTE] Stricly speaking of the cite posted in your post – have not yet read the UK one – let’s not simplify the facts, **John** From originalk link: > [@](#): > > Researchers compared the results and costs of treating 12,017 patients undergoing coronary artery bypass graft surgery at five U.S. hospitals and four in Canada. The average bypass-procedure cost was $20,673 in the U.S. and $10,373 in Canada, before adjustments, researchers led by Mark J. Eisenberg of Jewish General Hospital in Montreal wrote in the study. **The adjusted difference was about 83 percent.** > > Cardiovascular disease, a leading cause of illness and death in both countries, accounted for an estimated $209.3 billion in direct costs in the U.S. in 2003, including $94.1 billion in hospital expenses, according to the researchers. \*\*Medical treatment costs Canadian patients less because the government manages the health-care system, keeping costs lower, they said. > > ``After controlling for demographic and clinical differences, length of stay in Canada was 16.8 percent longer than in the United States; there was no difference in in-hospital mortality; and the cost in the United States was 82.5 percent higher than in Canada,‘’\*\* Eisenberg said in a statement. > > Labor costs included physician fees and nursing care. I **n Canada, nursing accounted for 44 percent of the treatment costs, compared with 21 percent in the U.S., because patients spent more time in the hospital in Canada. Still, nursing costs were about the same in each country, because U.S. nurses earned higher salaries.** The study didn’t provide such figures on doctors’ fees. > > **The researchers received funding from Pfizer Inc.** , the maker of the cholesterol-lowering pill Lipitor, which the company promotes as a way to avoid heart disease and the more costly hospital care associated with it. > > Medication Costs > > Eisenberg and his team found that **the cost of medications used to treat bypass patients, including aspirin and the antibiotic ciprofloxacin, were as much as 68 percent greater in the U.S. than in Canada.** The cost of a surgical bed was 36 percent greater in the U.S., and the cost of a bed in an intensive care unit was about the same, the researchers found. – highlight mine Speaking of heart disease, I see a lot more pork on the American side than I do in the Canadian. Pun fully intended. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143.md?page=11)