# Michael Moore tears CNN a new one **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 10, 2007, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143 "2007-07-10T01:25:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/41 "2007-07-10T16:25:17Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] The problem is people thinking health care is a necessary humanitarian service, it isn’t. No one should get anything but the absolute bare minimum of care (as in, the doctor stops you from bleeding if you come in with a gunshot wound) if they can’t afford it. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Who\_me?] Hmmm… don’t sound too good to me. I think I’ll take socialized healthcare over your brand. [/QUOTE] 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/42 "2007-07-10T16:27:00Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > A further aside to Diogenes: You want to nationalize and federalize the healthcare industry, right? You say Americans are overly fearful of government, and yet you’ve started Pit thread after Pit thread about the failings of that very government, especially under George W. Bush. Can you tell me why I should want my healthcare to be subject to the control of that same George W. Bush? This is a fair question on the surface, but my answer is that the leadership and the actual rank and file bulk of the government are two different things. Does GWB make you mistrust the military or the USPS as institutions? Me either. My criticism of Bush is just that – critcism of Bush, not “the Government” as a whole. FEMA, for instance, is a great organization and should not be blamed for the NO fiasco. It was Bush who fucked it up by rolling it into Homeland Security and appointing an unqualified corporate crony to run it. The remedy is to monitor the leadership, not to jetison FEMA. You could also use the military as an example. The debacle in Iraq is not an indictment of a state run miltary but of elected civilian leadership (something we have control of). ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/43 "2007-07-10T16:28:22Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Actually, that’s becoming less and less true and it’s not true at all of the health care industry. [/quote] In large part because of government intervention in this industry. Government mandates and restrictions stifle choice and lead to a situation like we have in Maryland, where two companies serve 92% of the small group market. That’s a direct consequence of government policy. > [@](#): > > No, you really can’t. I’m sorry to have to break it to you, but the range of consumer choice is really quite narrow and largely illusory and is becoming less powerful every day. It’s a complete non-factor when it comes to health care and phramaceuticals. Sorry, but if I don’t like my phone company, I have a wide variety of them to choose from. If I don’t like my grocery store, I can choose another. The choice is there. > [@](#): > > You get to decide who’s going to run the government. You don’t get to decide who’s going to run your HMO. No, but you can choose to go to another HMO (or you could were it not for government meddling). > [@](#): > > You can vote for someone else. That in itself is more power than anything you’ll ever have over an insurance company. No, I can choose not to buy a policy from them. I certainly cannot choose not to pay taxes to my government or not take its orders. > [@](#): > > Funny you mention roads and the postal service because those are examples of socialized industries which the government performs very effectively and cheaply. That’s a topic for another thread. > [@](#): > > The government can do that regardless of whether or not the country has socialized medicine. You’ve got the most pro-corporate White House imaginable right now and it also happens to be showing historical levels of disregard for civil liberties. Exactly. I’m not talking about socialized medicine. I’m talking about government in general. You seem to think corporations have more control of us than the government does. As I pointed out (and you agreed with), the government has the power to imprison us, kill us, and take our property. Corporations do not have this power. > [@](#): > > No, only people who are willing to pay can do that. Minorities with no money can’t do shit. That’s exactly why the profit motive has to be removed from some industries. What does the profit motive have to do with the cost of anything? You do realize, don’t you, that a large portion of the U.S. health care industry is run by nonprofits, right? > [@](#): > > We can’t do that with corporations either but at least we can choose who _leads_ the government. If I don’t like my Verizon DSL service, I can choose another. If I don’t like my DirectTV, I can choose another company. I can certainly refuse to give corporations my money. > [@](#): > > If by “too much” you mean “none,” then I agree with you. You clearly have done no research into how health care works in the U.S., have you? > [@](#): > > Where did you hear that, Rush Limbaugh? I haven’t listened to Limbaugh in 15 years. My opinion on the U.S. health care industry is based on a variety of research I have done. You might want to do a little yourself, instead of relying on Michael Moore for your “facts.” Any sort of minimal reading about the U.S. health care industry would educate you that it is heavily, heavily regulated and that the government pays for a huge amount of health care already. > [@](#): > > Medicare and Medicaid actually work much better than HMOs. That’s what happens when you remove profit motives. Medicaid works well? Again, your total lack of knowledge on this subject is apparent. People on Medicaid don’t even think it works well. It provides incredibly poor quality care for its recipients. And quite a few HMOs are nonprofit. But you knew that, right? ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/44 "2007-07-10T16:32:34Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] FEMA, for instance, is a great organization and should not be blamed for the NO, fiasco. It was Bush who fucked it up by rolling it into Homeland Security and appointing an unqualified corporate crony to run it. [/QUOTE] How is it going to be ok when a Bushette decides to roll Healthcare into Homeland Security and appointing an unqualified corporate crony to run it? Or cutting budgets (as they constantly do for Medicare and Medicaid, pushing the overburdened States to step up with funds). ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/45 "2007-07-10T16:37:28Z")
[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist] Or cutting budgets (as they constantly do for Medicare and Medicaid, pushing the overburdened States to step up with funds). [/QUOTE] Please find me one instance in the past twenty years when Medicare or Medicaid funds were cut. I’ll save you some time, since it hasn’t happened. What happens with Medicaid is that the federal government matches state spending, often dollar for dollar. This is an entitlement program, which means that there is essentially no federal cap. In recessions, though, the states find that their state revenue declines and thus they cannot continue funding ever-increasing Medicaid expenditures. So states cry for more money from Washington. But federal funding for Medicaid has not been reduced at any time. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/46 "2007-07-10T16:41:12Z")
> [@Renob](#): > > Exactly. I’m not talking about socialized medicine. I’m talking about government in general. You seem to think corporations have more control of us than the government does. As I pointed out (and you agreed with), the government has the power to imprison us, kill us, and take our property. Corporations do not have this power. But they DO have that power because that’s who the government works for. Cheney and Bush ARE the corporations. They started a war for Halliburton and the oil industry. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/47 "2007-07-10T16:43:43Z")
[QUOTE=Renob] In large part because of government intervention in this industry. Government mandates and restrictions stifle choice and lead to a situation like we have in Maryland, where two companies serve 92% of the small group market. That’s a direct consequence of government policy. [/quote] This sounds like complete nonsense. I’d be very interested in hearing more about how it could possibly be true that government interference is responsible for the power and monopolies of HMO’s. > [@](#): > > Medicaid works well? Again, your total lack of knowledge on this subject is apparent. People on Medicaid don’t even think it works well. It provides incredibly poor quality care for its recipients. And quite a few HMOs are nonprofit. But you knew that, right? It isn’t Diogenes that has a total lack of knowledge on the subject. From the [Kaiser Family Foundation](http://www.kff.org/medicaid/kcmu062905nr.cfm) > [@](#): > > Attitudes Towards Medicaid > > Nearly three-quarters (74%) of adults say Medicaid is a “very important" government program, ranking it close to Social Security (88%) and Medicare (83%) in the public’s mind, equal to federal aid to public schools (74%), and above defense and military spending (57%). About 8 in 10 Democrats (82%) and Independents (79%) view Medicaid as an important government program, while fewer, but still 6 in 10 Republicans (61%) express that view. > > A majority of Americans (56%) report having some interaction with Medicaid, either having been enrolled themselves at some point (16%) or knowing a friend or family member who has received health coverage or long-term care assistance through the program (40%). Additionally, if they needed health care and were eligible, nearly 8 in 10 Americans (78%) say they would be willing to enroll in Medicaid. This view is consistent across different party identifications. > > “We expected Medicaid to be relatively unpopular with the public, much like welfare was. But we found that Medicaid ranks closer to popular programs like Medicare and Social Security in the public’s mind. The fact that so many Americans have had some kind of contact with Medicaid themselves or through family and friends is one factor that could help explain this result,” said Mollyann Brodie, Ph.D., Vice President and Director of Public Opinion and Media Research for the Foundation. See also [Medicaid: Four Decades of Success](http://www.civilrights.org/issues/poverty/remote-page.jsp?itemID=28328121) for a review of the success of the Medicaid program. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/48 "2007-07-10T16:47:57Z")
[QUOTE=initech] The YouTube clip that **BrainGlutton** posted happens to end just before the incident in question. Here’s a longer piece: [http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/56446/](http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/56446/) Sorry, no timecode. All I can tell you is that the progress bar is directly below the O in “DOW” when Moore mocks Gupta. As I said, I’m a big fan of Moore. But it takes a lot of intellectual contortion to explain away this delivery. I’ve listened to Michael Moore a lot. I know what enunciation sounds like, and this wasn’t enunciation. It was mockery. [/QUOTE] Actually, the enunciation of ‘Gupta’ you refer to was included in the clip **BrainGlutton** linked to as well. Still doesn’t sound mocking to me. Obviously you disagree. But keep your snide comments about intellectual contortion to yourself. I’ve given you my honest opinion, as have several in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/49 "2007-07-10T16:57:16Z")
[QUOTE=Renob] Please find me one instance in the past twenty years when Medicare or Medicaid funds were cut. I’ll save you some time, since it hasn’t happened. What happens with Medicaid is that the federal government matches state spending, often dollar for dollar. This is an entitlement program, which means that there is essentially no federal cap. In recessions, though, the states find that their state revenue declines and thus they cannot continue funding ever-increasing Medicaid expenditures. So states cry for more money from Washington. But federal funding for Medicaid has not been reduced at any time. [/QUOTE] Sorry, my mistake - the protesters and frequent news articles seem to normally blame Bush, and I saw no reason to suspect that he’s raising Medicaid budget to keep pace with inflation. So now, instead of just an incompetent Federal Government, would this system follow the utopian Medicaid model and have 51 different ways to screw up? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/50 "2007-07-10T17:02:04Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] This is a fair question on the surface, but my answer is that the leadership and the actual rank and file bulk of the government are two different things. Does GWB make you mistrust the military or the USPS as institutions? Me either. My criticism of Bush is just that – critcism of Bush, not “the Government” as a whole. FEMA, for instance, is a great organization and should not be blamed for the NO fiasco. It was Bush who fucked it up by rolling it into Homeland Security and appointing an unqualified corporate crony to run it. The remedy is to monitor the leadership, not to jetison FEMA. You could also use the military as an example. The debacle in Iraq is not an indictment of a state run miltary but of elected civilian leadership (something we have control of). [/QUOTE] While I disagree with everything else you’ve said in this thread, I agree with this. A large part of the Federal bureaucracy is by and large not run directly by the President. The SEC, USPS board of governors, the Federal Reserve board et cetera all have Presidential appointees in key positions but they have a lot of institutionally and internally created regulations and operating practices and on the day-to-day level they operate independently of the politician that happens to sit in the White House. I don’t view, “X President sucks, do you want him running your healthcare system?” as a valid counter point to government-controlled medicine because many government agencies exist in the United States that are not extensively controlled by the politician who happens to be sitting in the White House. ---
**Author:** ![initech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/439d5e/32.png) [@initech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/initech)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/51 "2007-07-10T17:21:43Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I didn’t see a “DOW”, but I listened to about 2/3 of the audio recording, heard him say “Gupta” about 3 times, and I didn’t hear any mockery at all. I would say that he came across as a raving lunatic, though. Christ almighty what an attention whore that guy is!! I guess it really is a good thing that he went light on his own appearance in his latest film. [/QUOTE] It’s very close to the end (during the goodbyes, in fact). He seemed pissed off to me, not a raving lunatic. What behavior made him a raving lunatic? ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/52 "2007-07-10T17:24:24Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] This sounds like complete nonsense. I’d be very interested in hearing more about how it could possibly be true that government interference is responsible for the power and monopolies of HMO’s. [/quote] The Supreme Court ruled a while ago that health insurance is not involved in interstate commerce and thus every state has the power to set a variety of regulations on what type of health insurance is sold within its borders for the individual and small group markets (companies and organizations that self-insure are not subject to this regulation). That means that in a state like Maryland the government has imposed a variety of mandated services insurance must cover (in virto fertilization, for one, regardless of whether or not you want or need such a service) and the state health care commission has set up a variety of restrictions on copayments, deductibles, and the like. The result has been fewer and fewer companies selling policies in our state. That means less consumer choice. It also means that the few companies that continue to offer policies either cannot (due to government directives) or will not (due to lack of any competitive pressure) that are tailored to meet the need of consumers. > [@](#): > > It isn’t Diogenes that has a total lack of knowledge on the subject. I’d put my knowledge of Medicaid up against his any time. > [@](#): > > From the [Kaiser Family Foundation](http://www.kff.org/medicaid/kcmu062905nr.cfm)See also [Medicaid: Four Decades of Success](http://www.civilrights.org/issues/poverty/remote-page.jsp?itemID=28328121) for a review of the success of the Medicaid program. The Kaiser survey means pretty much nothing. Yes, people view it as an “important” program. That doesn’t mean it provides good health care. And so what if people needed health care and were eligible for it, they would sign up? Yes, I suppose if I needed health care and were eligible for a free government program, I would do so rather than continue to suffer. That still does not mean Medicaid provides good quality care. A more telling survey statistic is this one, by the Commonwealth Fund: > [@](#): > > 43 percent of adults favored employer-based coverage, 22 percent favored individually purchased insurance, 15 percent favored a new government program for the uninsured, and 10 percent favored Medicare or Medicaid. The full report can be found here: [http://www.cmwf.org/usr\_doc/edwards\_erosion.pdf](http://www.cmwf.org/usr_doc/edwards_erosion.pdf) > [@BobtheOptimist](#): > > Sorry, my mistake - the protesters and frequent news articles seem to normally blame Bush, and I saw no reason to suspect that he’s raising Medicaid budget to keep pace with inflation. Special interest groups often mislead the public about federal spending, so be skeptical of their claims. Bush actually has little affect on Medicaid spending. Medicaid is an entitlement program and as such its spending goes up or down depending on the number of people who use Medicaid and the type of services they use. Policymakers can affect the rate of spending by limiting eligibility and the like, but when this has been done (in 2005, for example), it merely reduced the rate that the program was increasing. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/53 "2007-07-10T17:39:04Z")
[QUOTE=Renob] The full report can be found here: [http://www.cmwf.org/usr\_doc/edwards\_erosion.pdf](http://www.cmwf.org/usr_doc/edwards_erosion.pdf) [/QUOTE] That report shows that the outllok is not so positive for employer sponsored insurance. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/54 "2007-07-10T17:42:10Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] That report shows that the outllok is not so positive for employer sponsored insurance. [/QUOTE] True, but I’m not here defending employer-based insurance. In fact, I’m not here defending our current health insurance system at all. ---
**Author:** ![denquixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@denquixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/denquixote)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/55 "2007-07-10T17:43:13Z")
[QUOTE=initech] He’s delivering it in a mock Indian accent. [/QUOTE] now that is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![initech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/439d5e/32.png) [@initech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/initech)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/56 "2007-07-10T17:47:33Z")
[QUOTE=Do Not Taunt] Actually, the enunciation of ‘Gupta’ you refer to was included in the clip **BrainGlutton** linked to as well. Still doesn’t sound mocking to me. Obviously you disagree. But keep your snide comments about intellectual contortion to yourself. I’ve given you my honest opinion, as have several in this thread. [/QUOTE] Your tone is uncalled for. The clip **BrainGlutton** provided in the OP _does not_ provide the comment in question. It ends seconds before Moore says Gupta’s name in a mocking tone. I provided a clip upthread and did my best to point you to the correct frame. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/57 "2007-07-10T17:55:27Z")
[QUOTE=Renob] A more telling survey statistic is this one, by the Commonwealth Fund: The full report can be found here: [http://www.cmwf.org/usr\_doc/edwards\_erosion.pdf](http://www.cmwf.org/usr_doc/edwards_erosion.pdf) [/quote] Telling of what? That working age (19 to 64 year old) Americans don’t want to be on Medicaid? That has no bearing on whether Medicaid has been successful or whether it is well-liked by those who have some experience with it. The population of that survey is highly unlikely to inform you of anything on those points. As a reminder, here is your assertion. > [@renob](#): > > Medicaid works well? Again, your total lack of knowledge on this subject is apparent. People on Medicaid don’t even think it works well. It provides incredibly poor quality care for its recipients. You seem to have forgotten the point you were so sure about. Can you in fact support it at all? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/58 "2007-07-10T18:03:47Z")
… ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/59 "2007-07-10T18:06:41Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Telling of what? That working age (19 to 64 year old) Americans don’t want to be on Medicaid? That has no bearing on whether Medicaid has been successful or whether it is well-liked by those who have some experience with it. The population of that survey is highly unlikely to inform you of anything on those points. [/quote] It certainly refutes your attempt to use the Kaiser Foundation study to show that Medicaid is wildly popular. > [@](#): > > As a reminder, here is your assertion. You seem to have forgotten the point you were so sure about. Can you in fact support it at all? Of course. [Here’s a good summary](http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:wNx6xng9ImoJ:www.heritage.org/Research/HealthCare/wm1402.cfm) of some of the literature on it (and yes it is from the Heritage Foundation, but feel free to go to the link and check out the footnotes yourself): "Once Medicaid beneficiaries gain access to the health care system, they receive inferior quality of care compared to patients with private insurance. For example, patients with non-ST segment elevation acute coronary syndromes (NSTSE ACS), a form of heart attack, benefit significantly from innovative therapeutic approaches, including early invasive management strategies. These measures have now been incorporated into the guidelines of the American College of Cardiology and the American Heart Association. According to a study in the Annals of Internal Medicine, however, Medicaid patients with NSTSE ACS were less likely to receive evidence-based therapies and had worse outcomes (including increased mortality rates) than patients who had private insurance as the primary payer. This study found that these differences in care and outcomes persisted after adjusting for clinical characteristics (associated illness), socioeconomic factors (education and income), and the type of center where patients received treatment. In other words, the most important predictor of treatment and outcome in the study was whether the patient had Medicaid or private insurance. Moreover, the data also show that Medicaid beneficiaries face more difficulties scheduling adequate and timely follow-up care after initial treatment for an illness than those with private insurance." ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/60 "2007-07-10T18:08:58Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] First of all, it doesn’t have to be an absolute one way or the other. Some things should be socialized (and some things already are in the US without any controversy), and some things should not be. Secondly, it’s false that Socialism “has failed whenever it was tried.” It works just fine all over Europe. It works fine in Canada and it works fine in the US. We also know that unchecked, _lassez faire_ capitalism is predatory and destructive and unsustainable in the long term (unless you’re a big fan of child labor and limitless pollution and fingers in your hamburger). The problem with the the Soviet Union was not a socialist economic system _per se_, but that it had a fascist, totalitarian political system. Socialism is not the opposite of democracy, contrary to popular belief. Capitalism in the has actually done more to inhibit democracy in the US than Socialism ever could. Why do you think you can’t sue HMO’s? Why do we all have to take up the ass from drug companies? Why is it that insurance companies don’t really have to cover their clients if they don’t feel like it? Because they pay for those privileges, that’s why. [/quote] You know… let’s not digress into a generalized critique of capitalism and socialism. I don’t think we’re using the terms in the same way anyway. I’ll stick to saying that your claim that Americans are brainwashed that capitalism = good doesn’t stand up to close scrutiny. > [@](#): > > Yes. What’s so horrible about that? It’s not like we haven’t removed profit motives from other necessary state services (the military, the postal service, etc.) So, let’s remove the profit motive from agriculture, housing, clothing and transportation. Those are all necessary services, too. You’re trying to do an end run around the debate, though, by declaring healthcare a necessary state service, when that hasn’t been established. The military is a natural state monopoly (which is different than being “socialized”) as we’ve seen in country after country where various standing armies are allowed or tolerated (witness Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Sudan, etc.). And the postal service was widely criticized before it was partially privatized. But let’s get to understand exactly how the profit motive is removed… Can I open a for-profit clinic if I want to? Can drug companies make a profit off of the drugs they manufacture? Can I sell diagnostic equipment for a profit? > [@](#): > > That’s a self-explanatory, self-defining phrase. OK, then I don’t see healthcare in that category. End of debate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143.md?page=4)