# Michael Moore tears CNN a new one **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 10, 2007, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143 "2007-07-10T01:25:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/121 "2007-07-11T19:42:29Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] [Nope](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Render_unto_Caesar...). Some people may interpret it that way, but it needn’t be interpreted thusly and if we look at the actual text, it doesn’t support that interpretation except by a stretch: The direct question is: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, meaning is it against God’s law to give tribute to Caesar. (Tribute, btw, is not the same as taxes.) It was a trick question, and he answered it in a suitably vague way. If this belongs to Caesar, give it to him, but be sure you give God that which belongs to God (who doesn’t give a fig about money anyway). [/quote] He said pay your taxes. he didn’t say it was ok NOT to pay your taxes. i’m aware of the traditional weaseling on this, but in practical terms, it amounts to a command to pay your taxes (a sentiment which was echoed by Paul). > [@](#): > > So what? They voluntarily agreed to be Baptized. But who says the disciples were interpreting Jesus’ words correctly? The Gospels themselves are filled with examples of Jesus telling his disciples that they didn’t understand what he was saying, and that was while he was still walking among them. There is no instance in the Gospels where Jesus tells his followers to form such communities and certainly not to kill people who got out of line. That tells me right there that they misinterpreted Jesus’ message. But if you’re a Christian then you believe that Paul was under the direct guidance of Jesus an Paul approved these communities, therefore (if you’re a Christian) you have to believe that Jessu approved them. > [@](#): > > Depends on what those community leaders actually do. Would you always trust “community leaders” of the religious sort to handle your money appropriately? I would trust a democratic state more thn I would trust self-appointed religious authorities. > [@](#): > > Exactly. Which is why Jesus’ words can’t be interpreted as saying “pay your taxes” if he is, in fact, advocating communism. What’s the contradiction there? > [@](#): > > So? Jesus never said that. According to Acts, God said it. Christians think that Jesus and God are the same dude, do they not? ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/122 "2007-07-11T19:46:36Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] According to Acts, God said it. Christians think that Jesus and God are the same dude, do they not? [/QUOTE] Except the passage you cited does not support the notion that Christians must give all their money to the church or God strikes them dead. Here is what the passage says: > [@the dude who wrote Acts](#): > > "Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet. > 3Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.” > > 5When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him. > > 7About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?” > “Yes,” she said, “that is the price.” > > 9Peter said to her, “How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.” As v. 3 clearly shows, Peter said that they were free to do with the property as they wished. However, since they lied, they were struck dead. Your interpretation, **Dio** , is flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/123 "2007-07-11T19:49:47Z")
Furthermore, going back to chapter 4, there seems to have been an agreement among the believers to share their property: > [@Acts chapter 4](#): > > 32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need. From this, there was no commandment to share their property, but merely an agreement to do so. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/124 "2007-07-11T20:01:19Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] He said pay your taxes. he didn’t say it was ok NOT to pay your taxes. i’m aware of the traditional weaseling on this, but in practical terms, it amounts to a command to pay your taxes (a sentiment which was echoed by Paul). [/quote] Well, as I already said it doesn’t really matter, because no one in this thread is advocated that we withhold taxes. We’re arguing about what is the proper use of taxes. > [@](#): > > But if you’re a Christian then you believe that Paul was under the direct guidance of Jesus an Paul approved these communities, therefore (if you’re a Christian) you have to believe that Jessu approved them. Well, that’s one interpretation that some Christians accept. But it also implies that there are essentially no Christians today since only a few monastic orders actually live that way. > [@](#): > > I would trust a democratic state more thn I would trust self-appointed religious authorities. So would I. > [@](#): > > What’s the contradiction there? If there is no state, there are no taxes. > [@](#): > > According to Acts, God said it. Christians think that Jesus and God are the same dude, do they not? Not all Christians accept Acts as the literal word of God. Hell, plenty of Christians don’t accept any of the Bible as the literal word of God. But so what if it were true? It still doesn’t say that you must use taxes to pay for universal healthcare, which is what we are discussing in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/125 "2007-07-11T20:10:18Z")
> [@](#): > > _You just knocked down one strawman only to introduce another of your own. Socialism is **objectively** bad, just as Hayek proved. It is incapable of establishing rational market prices. But corporatism is not the same as capitalism. In fact, in a capitalist system, there’d be no rights-bearing entities other than human beings._ Speaking of strawman, you’ve just introduced your own. See, I’m not sure about \*\*Dio \*\*or **'luc** , but I am an advocate of [Social democracy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy#Examples_of_social_democracy), which has nothing to do with with whatever Hayek “proved.” > [@](#): > > \*\*One way to delineate between social democratic parties and movements and democratic socialist ones is to think of social democracy as moving left from capitalism and democratic socialism as moving right from Marxism: A moderate, mainstream leftist party in a state with a market economy and a mostly middle class voting base might be described as a social democratic party… Furthermore: [Differences between Democratic Socialism and Social Democracy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differences_between_Democratic_Socialism_and_Social_Democracy) > [@](#): > > The terms democratic socialism and social democracy have often been used interchangeably, and many have considered them synonymous until recently. **Now the term social democracy refers to an ideology that is more centrist and supports a broadly capitalist system, with some social reforms (such as the welfare state), intended to make it more equitable and humane.** > > \ > > Democratic socialists usually support re-distribution of wealth and power, social ownership of major industries, and a planned economy. **Social democrats** have largely abandoned these concepts. Many democratic socialists retain a Marxist (although often reformist) analysis, while **social democrats** might entirely reject Marxism\*.\*\* – highlights all mine. Much more at source. \*As do I and most of my European brethen. Just in search of a bit more equality and fairer conditions for all of humanity. Kind of Christian of me (us) isn’t it? 😉 Whole new world out there, **Lib**. Time to burn strawmen and boogeymen while we’re at it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/126 "2007-07-11T20:13:31Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Speaking of strawman, you’ve just introduced your own. See, I’m not sure about \*\*Dio \*\*or **'luc** , but I am an advocate of [Social democracy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy#Examples_of_social_democracy), which has nothing to do with with whatever Hayek “proved.” Furthermore: [Differences between Democratic Socialism and Social Democracy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differences_between_Democratic_Socialism_and_Social_Democracy) – highlights all mine. Much more at source. \*As do I and most of my European brethen. Just in search of a bit more equality and fairer conditions for all of humanity. Kind of Christian of me (us) isn’t it? 😉 Whole new world out there, **Lib**. Time to burn strawmen and boogeymen while we’re at it. [/QUOTE] FTR, the [Social Democrats USA](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democrats_USA) are something rather different. (It only adds to the confusion that the Bolsheviks were a faction of the [Russian Social Democratic Labour Party.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Social_Democratic_Labour_Party)) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/127 "2007-07-11T20:26:29Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Apparently CNN taped a “second part” of the interview and broadcast it the next day. I missed it and don’t have a link to the vid, but [here’s](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-dwyer/cnn-stomaching-michael_b_55666.html) a scathing response by Frank Dwyer in the Huffington Post. [/QUOTE] You can view Round II [here.](http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/10/michael-moore-vs-wolf-blitzer-round-ii/) ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/128 "2007-07-11T20:45:53Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] FTR, the [Social Democrats USA](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democrats_USA) are something rather different. (It only adds to the confusion that the Bolsheviks were a faction of the [Russian Social Democratic Labour Party.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Social_Democratic_Labour_Party)) [/QUOTE] :eek: Why do you Americans have to make everything so freaking confusing when it comes to political terms? Hell’s bells, a “social democrat” party made-up of a bunch of interventionists hawks! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/129 "2007-07-11T20:54:12Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Why do you Americans have to make everything so freaking confusing when it comes to political terms? [/QUOTE] I dunno. Same reason we won’t go metric. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/130 "2007-07-11T21:07:00Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Matthew 22:21 is where Jesus says to pay your taxes… [/QUOTE] No, that’s where Jesus says not to carry around graven images of false gods. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/131 "2007-07-11T21:15:16Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] But if you’re a Christian then you believe that Paul was under the direct guidance of Jesus an Paul approved these communities, therefore (if you’re a Christian) you have to believe that Jessu approved them. [/QUOTE] If I were to say that I reject Paul’s writings, would you tell me that I wasn’t a Christian? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/132 "2007-07-11T21:21:32Z")
[QUOTE=Lord Ashtar] If I were to say that I reject Paul’s writings, would you tell me that I wasn’t a Christian? [/QUOTE] That might make you an [Ebionite.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites) ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/133 "2007-07-11T21:25:17Z")
Some of Paul’s stuff is good. Some of it contradicts Jesus. The latter, I disregard. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/134 "2007-07-11T21:32:23Z")
[QUOTE=Lord Ashtar] If I were to say that I reject Paul’s writings, would you tell me that I wasn’t a Christian? [/QUOTE] Yes, because Paul’s writings are the basis for Christianity. Without Paul, there is no soteriology. With no soteriology, there is no Christianity, just a Jewish wisdom teacher. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/135 "2007-07-11T21:42:00Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] No, that’s where Jesus says not to carry around graven images of false gods. [/QUOTE] What are you supposed to do, if a coin with Caesar’s picture on it is the only form of money you can spend?! ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/136 "2007-07-11T21:45:13Z")
I went to see _Sicko_ last night, and I think it’s a work of genius, and funny as hell to boot. I can see why the American health-care industry would be upset about it, though. The film’s message is simple and blatant: “The American for-profit health-care insurance system is catastrophically fucked up, and the socialized insurance systems of Canada, Britain and France are great. Even Cuba’s system is better than ours.” I can think of a hundred skimped or ignored issues in that message right off the top of my head. (For instance: what’s the percentage of Americans who are actually satisfied with their medical insurance system? What about the really poor or otherwise marginalized people in France and Britain? What about the use of additional “private insurance” services by affluent people in socialized-medicine countries? Aren’t you cherrypicking the worst cases of neglect and greed in the US system in order to dramatize the point? Etc. etc. etc.) But it’s all irrelevant. Mitigating circumstances and gray areas and both-sides-of-the-story considerations are not Moore’s concern. In the words of another well-known public figure, he doesn’t do nuance. Moore’s great gift and mission as a filmmaker is merely to call attention to “the elephant in the room” in various issues of American culture and politics. He does this by pointing out simple, naive and pervasive errors in popular perception and opposing to them simple and naive counterexamples. He uses his bumbling baseball-capped Everyschlub persona to spell out explicitly the conventional wisdom that we automatically accept, and to give a voice to our surprise when we find it contradicted by reality. In _Sicko_, the elephant in the room is the simple fact that _ **For-profit health insurance companies can often increase their profits by denying coverage and/or denying care to people who need them. This tends to subvert the ostensible goal of the health-care industry to supply sick people with the medical services they need.** _ We as a society have semi-subconsciously accumulated a whole lot of conventional wisdom to avoid seeing this elephant in the room, and Moore skewers piece after piece of it with his faux-naif “comedocumentary” technique. A few examples I remember: **Conventional Wisdom** : Our health-care system in America is the best in the world. **Moore** : But all these people are going bankrupt due to medical bills and not being able to afford the care they need and getting the runaround from insurance companies and drowning in paperwork when they try to deal with the problem. **CW** : Well, it may not be perfect, but it’s better than socialized medicine. **Moore** : But all these ordinary people in Canada and Britain and France have socialized medicine and they really like it. They get medical services that they need, it’s paid for with taxes, they can afford to buy their medications, and they don’t have to worry about the costs every time they get sick. They’re appalled at the idea of living with a health-care system like ours. **CW** : Whatever. Socialized medicine means communism and control by the government. **Moore** : But they don’t think it’s about communism: they think it’s about democracy. They think it’s just simple common sense for citizens of a democratic country to establish one big common risk pool to share the costs and the benefits of universal medical care. **CW** : But it sucks for the doctors. They have no freedom to run their practices the way they want to and they have to put up with skimpy government salaries and they lead crappy lives. **Moore** : No they don’t. Look at this British doctor with his fancy car and his million-dollar London house and all; he’s happy with his practice. These doctors don’t want to work in a system where they’d have to provide care based on what the patients can afford rather than what they need. **CW** : Well, even if socialized medicine has some advantages, it ruins the rest of life. Europeans have to pay such high taxes to support their health care that they can’t afford a decent individual standard of living. **Moore** : Sure they can. Look at this middle-class French couple with their house and two cars and two kids, and no debts except for their mortgage. Look at these souvenirs they’ve collected from all their vacations all over the world. And so on and so on and so on. By the time the movie got to Moore’s Cuba-trip schtick, I was just sitting there helpless with laughter. I said in my previous post that Moore’s a canny propagandist, but what he really is is a brilliant **counter** -propagandist. He takes all these half-digested, half-conscious, over-simplified notions that we’ve absorbed from commercial and political propaganda and lays them right out on the table. Then he comes back at them with over-simplified contradictory evidence from reality, and stands there looking puzzled and scratching his head at the contradiction. And the audience laughs at him for being such a naive nebbish, and simultaneously laughs at itself for never having seen the contradiction before. Sure, the picture Moore ends up presenting is over-simplified, distorted, biased, too black-and-white. But boy, is it ever refreshing, in a “by golly, the emperor **isn’t** wearing anything!” kind of way. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/137 "2007-07-11T21:51:45Z")
Well, he might have made a good movie, but what does that have to do with soteriology? Huh??? 🙂 BTW, Dio, it’s very convenient that you adopt the mainstream teachings of Christianity in order to marginalize anyone who doesn’t accept them, claiming they aren’t really a Christian. All that to support some silly claim you made that Jesus advocated communism (as in the Marxian type)? Wow. Just wow. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/138 "2007-07-12T01:03:51Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] I went to see _Sicko_ last night, and I think it’s a work of genius, and funny as hell to boot. I can see why the American health-care industry would be upset about it, though. The film’s message is simple and blatant: “The American for-profit health-care insurance system is catastrophically fucked up, and the socialized insurance systems of Canada, Britain and France are great. Even Cuba’s system is better than ours.” I can think of a hundred skimped or ignored issues in that message right off the top of my head. (For instance: what’s the percentage of Americans who are actually satisfied with their medical insurance system? What about the really poor or otherwise marginalized people in France and Britain? What about the use of additional “private insurance” services by affluent people in socialized-medicine countries? Aren’t you cherrypicking the worst cases of neglect and greed in the US system in order to dramatize the point? Etc. etc. etc.) But it’s all irrelevant. Mitigating circumstances and gray areas and both-sides-of-the-story considerations are not Moore’s concern. In the words of another well-known public figure, he doesn’t do nuance. Moore’s great gift and mission as a filmmaker is merely to call attention to “the elephant in the room” in various issues of American culture and politics. He does this by pointing out simple, naive and pervasive errors in popular perception and opposing to them simple and naive counterexamples. He uses his bumbling baseball-capped Everyschlub persona to spell out explicitly the conventional wisdom that we automatically accept, and to give a voice to our surprise when we find it contradicted by reality. In _Sicko_, the elephant in the room is the simple fact that _ **For-profit health insurance companies can often increase their profits by denying coverage and/or denying care to people who need them. This tends to subvert the ostensible goal of the health-care industry to supply sick people with the medical services they need.** _ We as a society have semi-subconsciously accumulated a whole lot of conventional wisdom to avoid seeing this elephant in the room, and Moore skewers piece after piece of it with his faux-naif “comedocumentary” technique. A few examples I remember: **Conventional Wisdom** : Our health-care system in America is the best in the world. **Moore** : But all these people are going bankrupt due to medical bills and not being able to afford the care they need and getting the runaround from insurance companies and drowning in paperwork when they try to deal with the problem. **CW** : Well, it may not be perfect, but it’s better than socialized medicine. **Moore** : But all these ordinary people in Canada and Britain and France have socialized medicine and they really like it. They get medical services that they need, it’s paid for with taxes, they can afford to buy their medications, and they don’t have to worry about the costs every time they get sick. They’re appalled at the idea of living with a health-care system like ours. **CW** : Whatever. Socialized medicine means communism and control by the government. **Moore** : But they don’t think it’s about communism: they think it’s about democracy. They think it’s just simple common sense for citizens of a democratic country to establish one big common risk pool to share the costs and the benefits of universal medical care. **CW** : But it sucks for the doctors. They have no freedom to run their practices the way they want to and they have to put up with skimpy government salaries and they lead crappy lives. **Moore** : No they don’t. Look at this British doctor with his fancy car and his million-dollar London house and all; he’s happy with his practice. These doctors don’t want to work in a system where they’d have to provide care based on what the patients can afford rather than what they need. **CW** : Well, even if socialized medicine has some advantages, it ruins the rest of life. Europeans have to pay such high taxes to support their health care that they can’t afford a decent individual standard of living. **Moore** : Sure they can. Look at this middle-class French couple with their house and two cars and two kids, and no debts except for their mortgage. Look at these souvenirs they’ve collected from all their vacations all over the world. And so on and so on and so on. By the time the movie got to Moore’s Cuba-trip schtick, I was just sitting there helpless with laughter. I said in my previous post that Moore’s a canny propagandist, but what he really is is a brilliant **counter** -propagandist. He takes all these half-digested, half-conscious, over-simplified notions that we’ve absorbed from commercial and political propaganda and lays them right out on the table. Then he comes back at them with over-simplified contradictory evidence from reality, and stands there looking puzzled and scratching his head at the contradiction. And the audience laughs at him for being such a naive nebbish, and simultaneously laughs at itself for never having seen the contradiction before. Sure, the picture Moore ends up presenting is over-simplified, distorted, biased, too black-and-white. But boy, is it ever refreshing, in a “by golly, the emperor **isn’t** wearing anything!” kind of way. [/QUOTE] I usually enjoy both your posts and your general headiness, but I’m glad, for your sake, that you don’t make a living as a movie critic. Question: where would you rather fall ill if uninsured, France or the mighty US of A? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/139 "2007-07-12T01:10:03Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Well, he might have made a good movie, but what does that have to do with soteriology? Huh??? 🙂 [/QUOTE] His documentary filmmaking skills are proof manifest of His divinity. Accept Michael and pray. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143/140 "2007-07-12T01:10:30Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Well, he might have made a good movie, but what does that have to do with soteriology? Huh??? 🙂 BTW, Dio, it’s very convenient that you adopt the mainstream teachings of Christianity in order to marginalize anyone who doesn’t accept them, claiming they aren’t really a Christian. All that to support some silly claim you made that Jesus advocated communism (as in the Marxian type)? Wow. Just wow. [/QUOTE] The early Christians tended to follow the ethics of the Essene sect, which was avowedly communistic (small “c”). Naturally, as I am sure you know, they were not atheists, nor is there any mention in the synoptic Gospels of “dialectical materialism”. But the social structure of the earliest Christians was thoroughly communal, you could read any of the scholarly works of J.D. Crossan if you would like to see that point thoroughly…nay, _exhaustingly_…discussed. So, it can be reliably demonstrated the the _originial_ Christianity was communistic in a manner than precedes the deranged fantasies of Karl Marx by nealy two thousand years. Which is to say, I think friend **Dio’s** meaning has eluded you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-tears-cnn-a-new-one/411143.md?page=8)