# Michael Moore's SICKO: A "Now that I've Seen It" Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 11, 2007, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moores-sicko-a-now-that-ive-seen-it-thread/418728 "2007-09-11T01:04:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moores-sicko-a-now-that-ive-seen-it-thread/418728/21 "2007-09-12T22:17:54Z")
[QUOTE=Renob] Of course, many large insurance companies are nonprofits, but you didn’t hear that in Michael Moore’s “documentary,” did you? [/QUOTE] Which ones? ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moores-sicko-a-now-that-ive-seen-it-thread/418728/22 "2007-09-13T03:16:33Z")
[QUOTE=scotandrsn] Which ones? [/QUOTE] Off the top of my head, Kaiser Permanente and many/most/all of the Blue Cross/Blue Shields (each state may differ, but I know in Maryland and a few other states the Blues are nonprofit). ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moores-sicko-a-now-that-ive-seen-it-thread/418728/23 "2007-09-13T03:37:15Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] All I’ll say about the European aspect of socialized care of all kinds — from medicine to child care and the rest of it — is that the US might not be able to afford it since it cannot get what Europe has, namely an ally that will subsidize its defense budget to the tune of billions of dollars in money, personnel, base commitments, and weaponry. [/QUOTE] What an odd thing to say. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moores-sicko-a-now-that-ive-seen-it-thread/418728/24 "2007-09-13T12:45:12Z")
[QUOTE=Renob] Off the top of my head, Kaiser Permanente and many/most/all of the Blue Cross/Blue Shields (each state may differ, but I know in Maryland and a few other states the Blues are nonprofit). [/QUOTE] Doesn’t seem to be that cut and dried. [Kaiser Permanente Maryland’s site](http://newsmedia.kaiserpermanente.org/kpweb/structurekp/entrypage.do) says that > [@](#): > > Kaiser Permanente is composed of Kaiser Foundation Health Plans (nonprofit, public-benefit corporations), Kaiser Foundation Hospitals (a nonprofit, public-benefit corporation), and the Permanente Medical Groups (for-profit professional organizations). [CareFirst Blue Cross Blue Shield of Maryland](http://www.carefirst.com/company/html/Timeline.html) is currently non-profit, but not for lack of trying: > [@](#): > > 2001 - CareFirst, in dramatic move, announces intention to convert to for-profit status and be acquired by WellPoint Health Networks\* of Thousand Oaks, CA, one of the nation’s largest health care companies. > . > . > . > 2003 - The Maryland Insurance Commissioner rejects the CareFirst-WellPoint plan for conversion to for-profit and subsequent merger. The Maryland General Assembly subsequently enacts “reform” to reaffirm CareFirst’s non-profit status and bar for five years any attempt to become a for-profit company. So we’ll see what happens next year. \*Wellpoint is a publicly traded, for-profit company ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moores-sicko-a-now-that-ive-seen-it-thread/418728/25 "2009-07-14T17:39:42Z")
A bit of a zombie, but may get traction because of the health care plans currently being proposed. [Here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-M10jDkmm0)’s Bill Moyers talking with a resigned high-level health insurance bigwig who discusses the industry’s disinformation campaign against Moore and the film (which he characterizes as “hitting the nail on the head”). ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moores-sicko-a-now-that-ive-seen-it-thread/418728/26 "2009-07-14T18:30:13Z")
> [@Renob](#): > > Off the top of my head, Kaiser Permanente and many/most/all of the Blue Cross/Blue Shields (each state may differ, but I know in Maryland and a few other states the Blues are nonprofit). None of the ones my employer offers are non-profit. Nor would it make any difference to the limitations placed on in/out network, referrals, pre-existing denials, misbilling, etc. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moores-sicko-a-now-that-ive-seen-it-thread/418728/27 "2009-07-14T18:58:53Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > A bit of a zombie, but may get traction because of the health care plans currently being proposed. [Here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-M10jDkmm0)’s Bill Moyers talking with a resigned high-level health insurance bigwig who discusses the industry’s disinformation campaign against Moore and the film (which he characterizes as “hitting the nail on the head”). I found [the full interview](http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07102009/watch2.html). Really astonishing - the pictures from the “health fair” are really something. His “Road to Damascus” moment at 6:30 is really something. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moores-sicko-a-now-that-ive-seen-it-thread/418728/28 "2009-07-14T19:15:11Z")
Holy shit. I’m listening to this interview, and it’s shocking to hear a former Vice-President of Cigna admit: You know, we have more people who are uninsured in this country than the entire population of Canada. And that if you include the people who are underinsured, more people than in the United Kingdom. We have huge numbers of people who are also just a lay-off away from joining the ranks of the uninsured, or being purged by their insurance company, and winding up there. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moores-sicko-a-now-that-ive-seen-it-thread/418728/29 "2009-07-14T20:05:02Z")
What I find most striking in comparing the U.S. and Canadian health care models is that the United States spends twice as much _per capita_ on health care for a comparable quality of care. Not per _user_, mind - we’re talking about looking at the entire population. “Okay, we pay twice as much per person, but nearly a quarter of the population is still going to have to go without. Let’s just keep going with this, it’s working great!” ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moores-sicko-a-now-that-ive-seen-it-thread/418728/30 "2009-07-15T02:17:54Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > As I said, it ain’t just the money. If my missiles hold off your enemy, then the missiles I built are a subsidy to you. _You_ have missiles? :eek: The US is obliged to assist in defending Japan by virtue of treaty established by the US. Japan pays about US$ 2 billion a year in subsidies to the US forces. ---
**Author:** ![Helena\_Handbasket](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Helena\_Handbasket](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena_Handbasket)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moores-sicko-a-now-that-ive-seen-it-thread/418728/31 "2009-07-15T03:44:18Z")
> [@cormac262](#): > > I was a bit skeptical of how rosy the health care in England and France was portrayed. But have yet to hear of solid experiences to the contrary (the people I know who lived in England were there some years ago, and I wasn’t sure their experiences were still valid examples). I was visiting my partner in England a few years ago and tore my cornea in my sleep (extreme dry eye condition). A third of my cornea was hanging off and flapping to and fro. The pain was blinding… or would have been if I’d had full use of my eyes. Still, was it life-threatening? Not in the least. My hunny called the doctor’s clinic and I was seen immediately. The doctor then sent me straight to hospital where I was examined by two specialists who performed laser surgery on my eye within an hour. I also received a prescription for antibiotic eye drops and had two follow-up appointments. Total cost: $46. Not having my cornea flapping in the breeze: Priceless. I’ve been a convert ever since. (This is my first post ever. 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moores-sicko-a-now-that-ive-seen-it-thread/418728/32 "2009-07-15T22:49:37Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > Holy shit. > > I’m listening to this interview, and it’s shocking to hear a former Vice-President of Cigna admit… I came in here to post about [this Cigna guy](http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-belle/bill-moyers-journal-cigna-chief-admit), CIGNA Public Relations Chief turned whistleblower Wendell Potter. > [@](#): > > WENDELL POTTER: I thought that he hit the nail on the head with his movie. But the industry, from the moment that the industry learned that Michael Moore was taking on the health care industry, it was really concerned. > > BILL MOYERS: What were they afraid of? > > WENDELL POTTER: They were afraid that people would believe Michael Moore ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moores-sicko-a-now-that-ive-seen-it-thread/418728/33 "2009-07-15T23:04:20Z")
> [@Helena\_Handbasket](#): > > (This is my first post ever. 🙂 ) Thanks for sharing, Helena, and Welcome! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moores-sicko-a-now-that-ive-seen-it-thread/418728/34 "2009-07-15T23:08:19Z")
> [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](#): > > I came in here to post about [this Cigna guy](http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-belle/bill-moyers-journal-cigna-chief-admit), CIGNA Public Relations Chief turned whistleblower Wendell Potter. Same guy. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moores-sicko-a-now-that-ive-seen-it-thread/418728/35 "2009-07-16T01:59:46Z")
> [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](#): > > I came in here to post about [this Cigna guy](http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-belle/bill-moyers-journal-cigna-chief-admit), CIGNA Public Relations Chief turned whistleblower Wendell Potter. > > _They were afraid that people would believe Michael Moore._ It’s absolutely astonishing how well the majority of the Democratic party followed the insurance industry’s lead on this. It’s hard to find anyone here on the Dope who will praise Moore without falling all over themselves qualifying their praise and all but calling him a liar, while the most absurd whoppers from the Right are accepted with nary a peep. Moore [responds to every single accusation with data and refutations](http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/checkup/), something I’ve never seen Limbaugh, Coulter, Hannity, or any of the Right-wing polemicists even try. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moores-sicko-a-now-that-ive-seen-it-thread/418728/36 "2009-07-16T17:03:08Z")
[http://ducknetweb.blogspot.com/2009/07/wendell-potter-speaks-on-pbs-with-bill.html](http://ducknetweb.blogspot.com/2009/07/wendell-potter-speaks-on-pbs-with-bill.html) Wendell Potter was an executive with Cigna. He thought everything was fine. He went home to Tennessee and heard there was a Healhcare Exoedition in another state, but not far away. He went there and was shocked to see long lines of people in the rain. He did not really understand the problem until then. These Expeditions were originally founded to go to 3rd world countries with poor health coverage. They found a need in rural America. Like most people who had no worries, he did not believe the depth of the problem. Then he became aware of what Cigna’s contribution was. He is now a spokesman for a UHC option. He says Moore told the truth. They spent a lot of money trying to discredit him. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moores-sicko-a-now-that-ive-seen-it-thread/418728/37 "2009-07-16T17:34:48Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > It’s hard to find anyone here on the Dope who will praise Moore without falling all over themselves qualifying their praise and all but calling him a liar, while the most absurd whoppers from the Right are accepted with nary a peep. Surely the implied subject of the second, passive clause, was not Dopers, right? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moores-sicko-a-now-that-ive-seen-it-thread/418728/38 "2009-07-16T19:57:18Z")
> [@Helena\_Handbasket](#): > > I was visiting my partner in England a few years ago and tore my cornea in my sleep (extreme dry eye condition). A third of my cornea was hanging off and flapping to and fro. > > […] > > (This is my first post ever. 🙂 ) You’ll be happy to know your very first post made me dry heave a little then run around the room shrieking/ ‘Flapping to and fro’? Gahhhh! ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moores-sicko-a-now-that-ive-seen-it-thread/418728/39 "2009-07-16T20:53:59Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > All I’ll say about the European aspect of socialized care of all kinds — from medicine to child care and the rest of it — is that the US might not be able to afford it since it cannot get what Europe has, namely an ally that will subsidize its defense budget to the tune of billions of dollars in money, personnel, base commitments, and weaponry. Can’t speak for other countries, but France’s military budget dwarfs every other subsection of tax use (according to wiki : 55 billion dollars, out of a 800 billion budget). It’s all very nice to rely on the US/OTAN for defense purposes, but it makes you their thrall. So we opted to get our own ICBMs, our own submarines, even our own aircraft carriers. And we still get kickass healthcare. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moores-sicko-a-now-that-ive-seen-it-thread/418728/40 "2009-07-16T21:05:15Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Surely the implied subject of the second, passive clause, was not Dopers, right? I can say that I’ve seen far less self-flagellation from the right wingers here over the excesses of Limbaugh than I’ve seen of left wingers doing the same about Moore. Also, please point me to the web site where Limbaugh supplies factual support for his various assertions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moores-sicko-a-now-that-ive-seen-it-thread/418728.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moores-sicko-a-now-that-ive-seen-it-thread/418728.md?page=3)