# Michael Schiavo: Hero **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 7, 2005, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933 "2005-08-07T00:32:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/141 "2005-08-09T14:42:13Z")
> [@](#): > > read the books of Elisabeth Keubler-Ross, she wrote the book on death and dying. Actually, she wrote a book, On Death and Dying. It was a very good book about learning to deal with death, including learning to let go. She later went on to write some particularly odd books in which she began speculating–against all the evidence that she claimed–about after-death experiences. Notably, in her last couple of interviews before her death, she presented herself as a very angry person who was only going, kicking and screaming against her will, to die in the foreseeable future. This does not tell against her good early work or against her later odd work, of course, but it makes an interesting contrast. **lekatt** , I really hope that, when you were working with hospice, you were not torturing people and their families by insisting that they hold on to their last gasp of breath as long as they could. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/142 "2005-08-09T14:45:14Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > If you are confident of that then you can be sure that he will get whatever he has coming to him. > > So why do you and others have to work so hard to try to increase his misery here? Don’t you have enough other things to do? How do you figger, I am only answering your posts, I didn’t bring up the subject, if you don’t want to talk about it just quit posting. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/143 "2005-08-09T14:45:29Z")
> [@](#): > > there were doctors who said she wasn’t brain dead. Name any doctor who physically examined her, (as in: was actually in the room with her body during the examination), who has made this claim. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/144 "2005-08-09T14:45:34Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > We are talking here about God and the afterlife. Actually, we were talking about Michael Schiavo’s heroism, but everything sounds like “God and the afterlife” to you **lekatt**. You are the **Reeder** of spirituality. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/145 "2005-08-09T14:47:49Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Gee, I didn’t know you were a doctor? If you have nothing to add don’t post. The vast majority of the doctors who examined her over the years agreed she was brain dead. Yes, a couple doctors (who should probably have changed their major to theology) said she was aware of her surroundings. It simply reinforces the notion that just because you’re a doctor doesn’t mean you’re a \*good \* doctor. Lekatt, try to wrap your brain around the idea that just because you _want_ a situation to turn out a certain way doesn’t mean that it actually \*will \* turn out that way. We all feel bad when bad things happen to good people. But it happens. Her husband gave it his best shot. He provided her every possible chance to be lifted out of her vegetative state by the pixies. It didn’t happen. Better only one of them died than both. At least he has a chance to make something of his life. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/146 "2005-08-09T14:49:37Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > What’s that got to do with your post. Let’s review: Lekatt: [outrageous claim](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6455021&postcount=117). Cricetus: [cite?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6455023&postcount=118) Lekatt: Well, [here’s another book of unsupported, outrageous claims unrelated to my unsupported outrageous claims](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6455323&postcount=135). So I repeat: please share with us evidence of this privileged information you have as to the whereabouts and status of Ms. Schiavo. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/147 "2005-08-09T14:56:49Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, she wrote a book, On Death and Dying. It was a very good book about learning to deal with death, including learning to let go. She later went on to write some particularly odd books in which she began speculating–against all the evidence that she claimed–about after-death experiences. > > Notably, in her last couple of interviews before her death, she presented herself as a very angry person who was only going, kicking and screaming against her will, to die in the foreseeable future. This does not tell against her good early work or against her later odd work, of course, but it makes an interesting contrast. > > **lekatt** , I really hope that, when you were working with hospice, you were not torturing people and their families by insisting that they hold on to their last gasp of breath as long as they could. I stand by what I said about her, she, like all serious researchers into near death experiences became a believer due to the evidence. She was not afraid of death, she only wanted to continue her work. In one of the last interviews she also said that “scientists who say there is no afterlife are talking BS” rather strong words for the little lady. As for my hospice work, I can’t explain it to you, each situation was different. You would probably just mock it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/148 "2005-08-09T14:59:07Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > Let’s review: > > Lekatt: [outrageous claim](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6455021&postcount=117). > Cricetus: [cite?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6455023&postcount=118) > Lekatt: Well, [here’s another book of unsupported, outrageous claims unrelated to my unsupported outrageous claims](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6455323&postcount=135). > > So I repeat: please share with us evidence of this privileged information you have as to the whereabouts and status of Ms. Schiavo. Afraid to face the truth again, read something you can learn from and stop listening to me. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/149 "2005-08-09T15:00:59Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > As for my hospice work, I can’t explain it to you, each situation was different. > You would probably just mock it anyway. I am no great advocate of tom’s, and even I would have to say that he is not likely to mock your past experiences with hospices. What he is likely to explain, (And you are likely to misinterpret as mocking), is that your experiences have no relevance towards scientific studies of NDE, and/or Terri Schiavo. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/150 "2005-08-09T15:07:58Z")
Buddha is not the name of a deity, lekatt. You thus displayed some ignorance immediately after castigating another poster, who did not display ignorance, for being ignorant. BTW, are you a doctor? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/151 "2005-08-09T15:08:34Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I stand by what I said about her, she, like all serious researchers into near death experiences became a believer due to the evidence. She was not afraid of death, she only wanted to continue her work. In one of the last interviews she also said that “scientists who say there is no afterlife are talking BS” rather strong words for the little lady. > > As for my hospice work, I can’t explain it to you, each situation was different. > You would probably just mock it anyway. Rather strong words, indeed. So what? She, like you, believes what she wants to believe, with no science to back it up. It’s your perogative, but don’t expect everyone to believe everything they hear. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/152 "2005-08-09T15:40:47Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Read something you can learn from and stop listening to me. Now that’s the best advice I’ve seen on this board in weeks. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/153 "2005-08-09T15:45:46Z")
> [@](#): > > she also said that “scientists who say there is no afterlife are talking BS” rather strong words for the little lady. > > As for my hospice work, I can’t explain it to you, each situation was different. > You would probably just mock it anyway. In what way are they “strong words for the little lady”? She was known throughout her life for being combatative. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it hardly makes her comments extraordinary. You are also wrong regarding her comments before her death. She made no brave statements that she wanted to live so as to continue her work. She simply said that she was angry about dying. Again, not a terrible thing, perhpas she was simply in the anger stage when interviewed, but certainly a contrast to someone who claimed that death was going to be some wonderful passage to a new life. As to mocking your experience with hospice, I am intimately acquainted with the program and philosphy and I would never mock someone who provided that service. This, in fact, was what prompted my remark: you seem to wish to have people be unnaturally prolonged beyond their time and I would fear that that attitude would be a horrible imposition on a dying patient or a grieveing family. If you did put aside that odd prejudice when dealing with your clients, then I am very appreciative (as, I am sure, were they). ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/154 "2005-08-09T16:38:04Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > As for my hospice work, I can’t explain it to you, each situation was different. > You would probably just mock it anyway. Ok **lekatt** , I don’t think we’ve had many interactions, but those few have been polite and respectful, I believe. So from that perspective and my having no desire to mock anyone, can you give your opinions on my anecdotal situation and how they differ/parallel from the Shiavos? It seems to me that a lot of those who express (for lack of a better term) dislike at what Michael has done is because they wouldn’t want the same thing done to themselves if they were in those circumstances. Especially the “moving on” part. However, just speaking for myself, _I_ am the exact opposite in thought of those (majority?) of people. And, as noted, I’m about as close to being in the same shoes from my wonderfully fun insanity problem perspective than I’ll ever be able to grasp and yet, the most loving thing in the world, the best gift I could receive (apart from normalcy) would be for my husband to have peace and happiness outside of the hell that this has made our existence. Therefore, armed with a point of view from at least _one person almost directly on the other side_, what do you make of that? I mean, I realize that here on the boards we have mostly folks sympathetic to the plight Michael went through and I’m not asking about how y’all hash that out as disagreeing factions. I want to know from a strictly emotional stance. Isn’t it possible that he was not only fighting his ass off for her and to do what she wanted, but that she’d also have desired him to truly live when she no longer could? To aim for something other than mere existence? Perhaps have what she wouldn’t or go ahead with the plans they made? All the while though, his regular life got relegated to the back burner while, standing by her in the most meaningful way possible, he honored and loved her enough to put Terri’s wishes above all else. Without buckling under the stress, character attacks and myriad other problems, but he also did NOT give in to the hype, the financial gain or the chance to play the martyr. Yes, he’s just human and has undoubtedly screwed up much too throughout this ordeal… however, I would be proud to be capable to show even 1/100th of his integrity out of sheer commitment. I’ll take that over that kind (where someone stays miserable and wastes their life out of misguided love for me) of lip service any day. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/155 "2005-08-09T17:19:54Z")
I dunno…is it something in the spiritual framework of some minds that figures it doesn’t matter how shitty life is here as long as you have that hereafter thing going for ya? Sorry. I ain’t buying that a god would want people to be depressed and burdened the rest of their lives. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/156 "2005-08-09T18:05:57Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Lekatt, try to wrap your brain around the idea that just because you _want_ a situation to turn out a certain way doesn’t mean that it actually \*will \* turn out that way. Or, that just because you want one thing to happen for you, doesn’t mean that everyone else wants the same thing. (In other words, just because **lekatt** wouldn’t want to be taken off life support were he in a PVS doesn’t mean that the rest of us feel that way). ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/157 "2005-08-09T18:31:56Z")
Precisely. For me, the situation Terri Schiavo wound up in is one of my worst nightmares. To be a living corpse, incapable of thinking or feeling, capable only of draining resources from those I love and, for that matter, from those I don’t even know is, to me, an unspeakable horror. It’s worse than being a vampire, although it’s akin to it. Vampires, according to legend, are capable of independent thought and motion, and maybe even reading a good book! 😉 To lie in a hospital bed for 15 years with no hope of recovery isn’t something I’d wish on anyone, not even **lekatt**. If that’s what he wants, then I’ll fight for his wish to have it and I’ll take on anyone who attempts to pull the plug, but please understand that for me it may be the worst fate I could wish on a person. By the way, **lekatt** , do you ever plan on retracting your allegations that I’m against religion and the sanctity of marriage or shall my opinion of you continue as it is? CJ ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/158 "2005-08-09T20:16:47Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Your post is also not relavant to the reality of the situation. Just a rant. The reality of the situation is that the woman was brain dead for years and hand-wringing, crystal-gazers like yourself are incapable of understanding that life has a beginning and an end. Even if I were to give you the benefit of the enormous doubt regarding the existence of a god or a soul, _the body is a separate thing and in Ms. Schiavo’s case, it is no longer useful to her or anyone else._ ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/159 "2005-08-09T20:19:03Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > Ok **lekatt** , I don’t think we’ve had many interactions, but those few have been polite and respectful, I believe. So from that perspective and my having no desire to mock anyone, can you give your opinions on my anecdotal situation and how they differ/parallel from the Shiavos? > > It seems to me that a lot of those who express (for lack of a better term) dislike at what Michael has done is because they wouldn’t want the same thing done to themselves if they were in those circumstances. Especially the “moving on” part. However, just speaking for myself, _I_ am the exact opposite in thought of those (majority?) of people. And, as noted, I’m about as close to being in the same shoes from my wonderfully fun insanity problem perspective than I’ll ever be able to grasp and yet, the most loving thing in the world, the best gift I could receive (apart from normalcy) would be for my husband to have peace and happiness outside of the hell that this has made our existence. Therefore, armed with a point of view from at least _one person almost directly on the other side_, what do you make of that? > > I mean, I realize that here on the boards we have mostly folks sympathetic to the plight Michael went through and I’m not asking about how y’all hash that out as disagreeing factions. I want to know from a strictly emotional stance. Isn’t it possible that he was not only fighting his ass off for her and to do what she wanted, but that she’d also have desired him to truly live when she no longer could? To aim for something other than mere existence? Perhaps have what she wouldn’t or go ahead with the plans they made? > > All the while though, his regular life got relegated to the back burner while, standing by her in the most meaningful way possible, he honored and loved her enough to put Terri’s wishes above all else. Without buckling under the stress, character attacks and myriad other problems, but he also did NOT give in to the hype, the financial gain or the chance to play the martyr. > > Yes, he’s just human and has undoubtedly screwed up much too throughout this ordeal… however, I would be proud to be capable to show even 1/100th of his integrity out of sheer commitment. > I’ll take that over that kind (where someone stays miserable and wastes their life out of misguided love for me) of lip service any day. Love is never misguided, nor does it make anyone miserable. The Terri Scharvo case was very unique in a lot of ways. It was not a simple case of letting someone die because their life was finished. It had lots of unanswered questions, unknown motives, and nothing but hearsay evidence as to her wishes. Michael could have divorced his wife at any time and turned her over to her parents, freeing himself to get on with his life, but he chose not to do that. It is a rare case that catches the attention of the world press, and envolves the President of the United States and Congress. My opinions on this case are for this case only, they can not be transferred to “what I may think” of other cases. This will answer some of Tom’s questions also. Your situation is not like Terri’s in any aspect. If you suddenly got much better would you still feel the way you do? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/160 "2005-08-09T20:26:16Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Rather strong words, indeed. So what? She, like you, believes what she wants to believe, with no science to back it up. It’s your perogative, but don’t expect everyone to believe everything they hear. She was a researcher all her life, and there are tons of scientific evidence to back up what she and hundreds of other researchers believe in – life after death. I have put up numerous links to the material, if you are interested go find some. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933.md?page=9)