# Michael Schiavo: Hero **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 7, 2005, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933 "2005-08-07T00:32:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/161 "2005-08-09T20:28:14Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > The reality of the situation is that the woman was brain dead for years and hand-wringing, crystal-gazers like yourself are incapable of understanding that life has a beginning and an end. Even if I were to give you the benefit of the enormous doubt regarding the existence of a god or a soul, _the body is a separate thing and in Ms. Schiavo’s case, it is no longer useful to her or anyone else._ Just trying to cover all bases, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/162 "2005-08-09T20:28:20Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Love is never misguided, nor does it make anyone miserable. The Terri Scharvo case was very unique in a lot of ways. It was not a simple case of letting someone die because their life was finished. It had lots of unanswered questions, unknown motives, and nothing but hearsay evidence as to her wishes. Michael could have divorced his wife at any time and turned her over to her parents, freeing himself to get on with his life, but he chose not to do that. It is a rare case that catches the attention of the world press, and envolves the President of the United States and Congress. My opinions on this case are for this case only, they can not be transferred to “what I may think” of other cases. This will answer some of Tom’s questions also. > > Your situation is not like Terri’s in any aspect. If you suddenly got much better would you still feel the way you do? Look who’s talking about “nothing but hearsay evidence”. Oh ye of little faith! The bond between a husband and wife is automatically assumed to be truthful and binding. Whether it is or not is another story. But for anyone to take all those other people’s word over the husband’s word is not only wrong, but is a slap in the face to your so-called “sanctity” of marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/163 "2005-08-09T20:30:26Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Just trying to cover all bases, huh? Would you care to let us know what the hell you’re talking about? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/164 "2005-08-09T20:32:15Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > Precisely. For me, the situation Terri Schiavo wound up in is one of my worst nightmares. To be a living corpse, incapable of thinking or feeling, capable only of draining resources from those I love and, for that matter, from those I don’t even know is, to me, an unspeakable horror. It’s worse than being a vampire, although it’s akin to it. Vampires, according to legend, are capable of independent thought and motion, and maybe even reading a good book! 😉 To lie in a hospital bed for 15 years with no hope of recovery isn’t something I’d wish on anyone, not even **lekatt**. If that’s what he wants, then I’ll fight for his wish to have it and I’ll take on anyone who attempts to pull the plug, but please understand that for me it may be the worst fate I could wish on a person. > > By the way, **lekatt** , do you ever plan on retracting your allegations that I’m against religion and the sanctity of marriage or shall my opinion of you continue as it is? > > CJ I can’t retract what I never said: you took my post personally, but there was nothing personal about it. It was a general statement to all as to what I believe marriage means. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/165 "2005-08-09T20:36:19Z")
> [@](#): > > , and nothing but hearsay evidence as to her wishes. Anyone who’s read your previous posts on various topics will be shocked to learn you do not consider hearsay evidence to be convincing. ---
**Author:** ![phungi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/phungi/32/395_2.png) [@phungi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phungi)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/166 "2005-08-09T20:50:49Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > Precisely. For me, the situation Terri Schiavo wound up in is one of my worst nightmares. To be a living corpse, incapable of thinking or feeling, capable only of draining resources from those I love and, for that matter, from those I don’t even know is, to me, an unspeakable horror… > CJ My worst nightmare is having [locked-in syndrome](http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/921775038.html), in which you have complete paralysis of all voluntry muscles but are 100% cognitively intact. If I am going to be kept alive, let me know nothing about what is going on. I applaud Michael Schaivo for his dedication and convictions, and know that: 1. I do not know all the details, regardless of how much speculative information is out there. 2. My wife is fully aware of my wishes and there will be no religious/political tug of war over my eternal salvation. 3. You cannot fault a spouse for continuing their life, especially when faced with the loss of their former spouse (debate what you like about quality of life, communicative ability, whether or not she had PVS, but Terri the wife/friend/life partner was no more). 4. No offense to animal lovers, but if he didn’t want to care for these cats, having them “euthanized” (or whatever euphemism is more comfortable for “killing them”) is far better than putting them on the streets, but far worse than taking them to a shelter that does not “put down” animals. 5. I am glad the case had such high profile coverage, as many people may have taken the necessary steps required to secure a living will and establish advanced directives. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/167 "2005-08-09T20:50:55Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Love is never misguided, nor does it make anyone miserable. Oh, I presume there’s an inevitable No True Scotsman argument in the works – any case where love has obviously been misguided (Michael Jackson, anyone?) or made someone miserable (let me tell you about a redhead from South Dakota) will be called “not really love, not the love you mean,” and I won’t bother dancing that dance with you. > [@](#): > > The Terri Scharvo case was very unique in a lot of ways. It was not a simple case of letting someone die because their life was finished. It should have been, but the busybodies got involved. > [@](#): > > It had lots of unanswered questions, unknown motives, None of which are your business > [@](#): > > and nothing but hearsay evidence as to her wishes. Nothing but testimony by friends and family as to her wishes, held up by a court of law. Just because you don’t respect her wishes, doesn’t mean there is no evidence for them. You’ve accepted far more outrageous claims on a lot less evidence, Lekatt. > [@](#): > > Michael could have divorced his wife at any time and turned her over to her parents, freeing himself to get on with his life, but he chose not to do that. Which was his prerogative, and none of your business. > [@](#): > > It is a rare case that catches the attention of the world press, and envolves the President of the United States and Congress. It wasn’t there business either. > [@](#): > > My opinions on this case are for this case only, they can not be transferred to “what I may think” of other cases. No, you’ll make up meddling opinions on other’s peoples lives as you see fit, on a case by cases basis. Which people deserve to have their wishes respected? Which bereaved widowers need to be slandered? You will make those decisions as needed. May the angels guide you, Lekatt. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/168 "2005-08-09T20:54:29Z")
[QUOTE=Leviosaurus] FWIW - I like the \*idea \* of Michael Schiavo. I like the image of him that most of the people in this thread have expressed - a guy who stood by his wife through hell to make sure her final wishes were carried out. QUOTE] Which was kind of my point earlier. People are reacting to the idea of Michael Shiavo’s actions. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/169 "2005-08-09T20:58:17Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > In what way are they “strong words for the little lady”? She was known throughout her life for being combatative. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it hardly makes her comments extraordinary. You are also wrong regarding her comments before her death. She made no brave statements that she wanted to live so as to continue her work. She simply said that she was angry about dying. Again, not a terrible thing, perhpas she was simply in the anger stage when interviewed, but certainly a contrast to someone who claimed that death was going to be some wonderful passage to a new life. > > As to mocking your experience with hospice, I am intimately acquainted with the program and philosphy and I would never mock someone who provided that service. This, in fact, was what prompted my remark: you seem to wish to have people be unnaturally prolonged beyond their time and I would fear that that attitude would be a horrible imposition on a dying patient or a grieveing family. If you did put aside that odd prejudice when dealing with your clients, then I am very appreciative (as, I am sure, were they). As for Keubler-Ross, I heard the interview on TV sometime back. The interviewer was asking her about her work since she still wrote everyday. I took the comments to mean as I said, I can understand if someone didn’t get the same thing from the interview. Death is not a passage to a new life, just a continuation of the one you already have. Whatever problems you have now, or growth you have accomplished will follow you. I have no prejudices concerning death. I have no fear of death. My job was to make the passage as easy as possible for all concerned. Sometimes the patient was in a coma and I tried to help the family on whatever level they were at. If they wanted to talk about death we did, if not, we didn’t. I encouraged a letting-go attitude unless they just couldn’t accept it. Then we prayed for God’s will. If the patient was awake I tried to help them feel better about dying. If they were open to it we talked about near death experiences. Some times this allowed the patient to release his fear of death and relax into it. Each case was unique and required a different approach. Hospices encourage near death experiencers to volunteer because of their fearlessness. There is a nation wide organization called “Compassion in Action” that recruits NDEers for hospice work. It is a very fulfilling job. I had to quick do to work requirements, probably will go back to it someday. I have found that skeptics know very little about spiritual things because they read only the liberal media or the skeptical literature, which does not tell the whole truth about spirituality. If they did, they couldn’t debunk it. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/170 "2005-08-09T21:18:50Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I have found that skeptics know very little about spiritual things because they read only the liberal media or the skeptical literature, which does not tell the whole truth about spirituality. If they did, they couldn’t debunk it. That’s right, Lekatt…no one understands spirituality but you. Keeee-rist! I have yet to see two people even _define_ it in the same way! But to get back on task here, you were saying that you knew more about the Schiavo’s relationship than her widow did. Just wondering how you got the inside scoop. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/171 "2005-08-09T21:19:05Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Love is never misguided, nor does it make anyone miserable. Well, I suppose we’ll agree to disagree on that then because I know lots of people who truly love someone, but it is misguided and it does indeed make the participants miserable. \< snip \> > [@](#): > > Michael could have divorced his wife at any time and turned her over to her parents, freeing himself to get on with his life, but he chose not to do that. You are absolutely correct. And the _reason_ that he didn’t divorce his wife is because he wanted to honor her wishes ABOVE his own and still try to have something for himself. Just like I want for my husband. If mine didn’t attempt to move on, that would make what I have to go through intolerable. I dare say that I would definitely end my life if I knew it permanently held up his. That way, I’d take measures into my own hands and wouldn’t have to worry about an obligation to a legality. As long as he loves me, which is the most important part, I only wish for the rest of him to be happy. That means doing right by me… with the love and whatever else makes life for him. Divorce, another woman, I don’t care. I do not want him to live my hell by proxy. I mean, that’s why he has a _life of his OWN_. \< snip \> > [@](#): > > My opinions on this case are for this case only, they can not be transferred to “what I may think” of other cases. My “case” is also unique, but similar, and I specifically wanted input on one in light of the other. That’s how we make judgment calls, is by evaluation of all sorts of data. I’m assuming those who feel that Terri would have thought his behavior disreputable is because of their views lining up with personal experience and observation. \< snip \> > [@](#): > > Your situation is not like Terri’s in any aspect. I really don’t know what to say here. I thought I’d pointed out the superfluous likenesses, but didn’t think anyone would perceive that to mean that I thought it was “like Terri’s.” However, in NO aspect? Once more, I’ll go with what I said initially in this post. > [@](#): > > If you suddenly got much better would you still feel the way you do? YES. Resoundingly and without hesitation. My husband has suffered too much (and would continue to do so if we remained together) to continue to have me as a burden around his neck. In any capacity. With all the love in the world included. I want him to have back what my illness has taken away, or as much as he can, and a chance to aim for whatever is left. I can’t help what’s happened, but I can do my best not to continue sabotaging HIS life. Because he gets to have one too. And I sure as hell wouldn’t feel any differently about this, no matter what the given situation. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/172 "2005-08-09T21:19:53Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > That’s right, Lekatt…no one understands spirituality but you. Keeee-rist! I have yet to see two people even _define_ it in the same way! > > But to get back on task here, you were saying that you knew more about the Schiavo’s relationship than her widow did. Just wondering how you got the inside scoop. Widow-ER. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/173 "2005-08-09T22:02:47Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I have found that skeptics know very little about spiritual things because they read only the liberal media or the skeptical literature, which does not tell the whole truth about spirituality. If they did, they couldn’t debunk it. Is there any particular reason why you hung this _non sequitur_ on the end of a response to me? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/174 "2005-08-09T22:23:48Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > It’s one of the stories in Heinlein’s “Future History” series. I don’t think he ever mentioned, nor did he have any of the other characters mention, why the chicken liver was so named. The jilted bride in Great Expectations was Mrs. Haversham. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/175 "2005-08-09T23:23:32Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Is there any particular reason why you hung this _non sequitur_ on the end of a response to me? Tom, you do realize you’re asking this question of **lekatt** , don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/176 "2005-08-10T00:42:17Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Is there any particular reason why you hung this _non sequitur_ on the end of a response to me? Playing to the audience. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/177 "2005-08-10T02:05:23Z")
You misspelled “harping on a theme regardless of context.” ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/178 "2005-08-10T10:52:32Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You misspelled “harping on a theme regardless of context.” (snort!) ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/179 "2005-08-10T14:21:34Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > Well, I suppose we’ll agree to disagree on that then because I know lots of people who truly love someone, but it is misguided and it does indeed make the participants miserable. > > \< snip \> > > You are absolutely correct. And the _reason_ that he didn’t divorce his wife is because he wanted to honor her wishes ABOVE his own and still try to have something for himself. Just like I want for my husband. If mine didn’t attempt to move on, that would make what I have to go through intolerable. I dare say that I would definitely end my life if I knew it permanently held up his. That way, I’d take measures into my own hands and wouldn’t have to worry about an obligation to a legality. As long as he loves me, which is the most important part, I only wish for the rest of him to be happy. That means doing right by me… with the love and whatever else makes life for him. Divorce, another woman, I don’t care. I do not want him to live my hell by proxy. I mean, that’s why he has a _life of his OWN_. > > \< snip \> > > My “case” is also unique, but similar, and I specifically wanted input on one in light of the other. That’s how we make judgment calls, is by evaluation of all sorts of data. I’m assuming those who feel that Terri would have thought his behavior disreputable is because of their views lining up with personal experience and observation. > > \< snip \> > > I really don’t know what to say here. I thought I’d pointed out the superfluous likenesses, but didn’t think anyone would perceive that to mean that I thought it was “like Terri’s.” However, in NO aspect? Once more, I’ll go with what I said initially in this post. > > YES. Resoundingly and without hesitation. My husband has suffered too much (and would continue to do so if we remained together) to continue to have me as a burden around his neck. In any capacity. With all the love in the world included. I want him to have back what my illness has taken away, or as much as he can, and a chance to aim for whatever is left. I can’t help what’s happened, but I can do my best not to continue sabotaging HIS life. Because he gets to have one too. > > And I sure as hell wouldn’t feel any differently about this, no matter what the given situation. Marriage is a partnership, both share equally in the fortunes and misfortunes of the other. Love is freely given, asking nothing in return, expecting nothing in return. Love is an important part of marriage, but not the whole of it. That’s why marriage is sacred. We have lost the understandings in today’s society. I don’t know your situation, I can only guess. If your love for your Husband is great enough to release him from the marriage vows, and he still stays by you. Then you are witnessing an expression of true love and should accept it for what it is. Be thankful for such a love, that a man give his life for another is the greatest love. If your health improved greatly, then you would no longer be a burden to him. The relationship could become normal again. Do you believe you can get well? Do you want to get well? Taking the road of self destruction is never an answer to problems, it only compounds the problems. If you would like to talk to someone who has been down that path, try the link below. [http://www.aleroy.com/Suic01.htm](http://www.aleroy.com/Suic01.htm) ---
**Author:** ![phungi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/phungi/32/395_2.png) [@phungi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phungi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933/180 "2005-08-10T15:40:18Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > snip… Love is an important part of marriage, but not the whole of it. That’s why marriage is sacred. We have lost the understandings in today’s society. Who has lost their understanding, “we”? > [@lekatt](#): > > Taking the road of self destruction is never an answer to problems, it only compounds the problems. If you would like to talk to someone who has been down that path, try the link below. > > [Suicide NDE accounts 01.](http://www.aleroy.com/Suic01.htm) what does this have to do with anything? you parade someone’s vague biased website as a poster child for the merits of self actualization after a failed suicide? Who is self destructing? This debate has a clear winner, and that is the side using logic and rational thought. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-schiavo-hero/315933.md?page=10)