# Michael Vick = idiot! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 17, 2007, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198 "2007-07-17T23:50:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/181 "2007-07-22T02:11:19Z")
There are I believe seven witnesses ,including an FBI undercover man. No one says toss him in jail until his trial is done. But, does he have the right to play football when so many in the stands will be disgusted by him.? Will he be able to lead or play in the horrible circumstances that will be present. ? Will his team mates shrug it off? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/182 "2007-07-22T02:19:48Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] But, does he have the right to play football when so many in the stands will be disgusted by him.? [/QUOTE] [Looks like there will be a quick decision on Vick’s playing status:](http://www.ajc.com/falcons/content/sports/falcons/stories/2007/07/20/0721future.html) > [@](#): > > Falcons quarterback Michael Vick’s future on — or off — the playing field will be determined by early next week, according to two people familiar with the situation. > > Falcons, NFL and NFL players union officials held a third day of conference calls Friday to try to resolve what to do with Vick, who was indicted Tuesday on federal dogfighting charges. > > Several items need to be ironed out between all parties, but things are moving forward to where a decision will be made before Falcons players report to training camp Wednesday, a person with knowledge of the situation confirmed. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/183 "2007-07-22T02:23:01Z")
Seeing as how Pacman Jones got booted for a year even though he got no jail time, fair is fair, right? Vick should be out for a year. There’s precedence now. If he does go to jail, well, then he gets to be kicked out for a little longer. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/184 "2007-07-22T02:32:23Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] But, does he have the right to play football when so many in the stands will be disgusted by him.? [/QUOTE] I don’t understand this use of the word “right.” Do you mean, should he be able to force his team to play him? If so, no. I don’t think he should be able to force that. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/185 "2007-07-22T02:34:55Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] There are I believe seven witnesses, including an FBI undercover man. [/QUOTE] Do you have a cite for that number? The indictment only mentions four witnesses, all of whom seem to be offering testimony in exchange for leniency in their own cases. And how many of those persons claim to have witnessed Vick’s direct involvement? Much of the indictment is couched in terms of Vick being a “sponsor” of a dog, which seems like vague language to me. For all we really know, this could just mean Vick’s mooching cousin showed up with a dog he bought using Vick’s money. Vick may be guilty, but IMO we don’t yet have enough information to reach that conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/186 "2007-07-22T02:50:32Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] Seeing as how Pacman Jones got booted for a year even though he got no jail time, fair is fair, right? [/QUOTE] [Pacman had a long history of run-ins _with the police_. Ten prior incidents.](http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2832015) Vick has had: Incident with a water bottle at airport. No charges were filed. (Though one wonders if team officials greased the right palms to get the matter dropped.) Flipping off fans who were booing him. Lawsuit over an STD. (Embarrassing but not a criminal matter.) Anything else? ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/187 "2007-07-22T03:23:17Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] [Pacman had a long history of run-ins _with the police_. Ten prior incidents.](http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2832015) Vick has had: Incident with a water bottle at airport. No charges were filed. (Though one wonders if team officials greased the right palms to get the matter dropped.) Flipping off fans who were booing him. Lawsuit over an STD. (Embarrassing but not a criminal matter.) Anything else? [/QUOTE] What, that’s not enough? He didn’t get any jail time for the most recent transgression. Goddell was disciplining him for his entire list of evils. In any case, the rest of what I said still stands. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/188 "2007-07-22T03:24:24Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] [Pacman had a long history of run-ins _with the police_. Ten prior incidents.](http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2832015) Vick has had: Incident with a water bottle at airport. No charges were filed. (Though one wonders if team officials greased the right palms to get the matter dropped.) Flipping off fans who were booing him. Lawsuit over an STD. (Embarrassing but not a criminal matter.) Anything else? [/QUOTE] What, that’s not enough? He didn’t get any jail time for the most recent transgression. Goddell was disciplining him for his entire list of evils. Hell, for future evils, he might warrant suspension. In any case, the rest of what I said still stands. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/189 "2007-07-22T03:50:48Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] Vick has had: Incident with a water bottle at airport. Flipping off fans who were booing him. Lawsuit over an STD. Anything else? [/QUOTE] [This article](http://www.ajc.com/services/content/sports/falcons/stories/2007/07/21/0722vickbio.html?cxtype=rss&cxsvc=7&cxcat=21) mentions some others. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/190 "2007-07-22T04:02:50Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] What, that’s not enough? [/QUOTE] Well, there are no prior crimes. He might have smoked some pot. (Probably did.) He has some unsavory associates. (Per the article linked by **Xema**.) But that doesn’t make him a criminal. It’s nothing like the record Pacman amassed. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/191 "2007-07-22T20:01:58Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] Do you have a cite for that number? The indictment only mentions four witnesses, all of whom seem to be offering testimony in exchange for leniency in their own cases. And how many of those persons claim to have witnessed Vick’s direct involvement? Much of the indictment is couched in terms of Vick being a “sponsor” of a dog, which seems like vague language to me. For all we really know, this could just mean Vick’s mooching cousin showed up with a dog he bought using Vick’s money. Vick may be guilty, but IMO we don’t yet have enough information to reach that conclusion. [/QUOTE] Sports radio in my car yesterday. I did not record it. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/192 "2007-07-22T21:07:55Z")
[QUOTE=asterion] Michael Vick may be an idiot, but did you hear Senator Byrd today? Yeesh. [/QUOTE] That dude’s three heartbeats away from the presidency. That makes 3 1/2 heartbeats to President Condi Rice. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/193 "2007-07-22T21:54:21Z")
At least he wont ignore the constitution he swore to uphold. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/194 "2007-07-23T18:57:14Z")
[Sounds like the commissioner is trying to talk Vick into taking a paid leave](http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-nfl21jul21,1,7284687.story?coll=la-headlines-sports&track=crosspromo). (The implicit threat may be that if Vick doesn’t take a paid leave, he will get an unpaid one.) And it sounds like Sen. John Kerry, with one finger in the wind, is riding to the front of the lynch mob: > [@](#): > > “I am deeply disturbed by the indictment of Michael Vick for dogfighting charges,” Kerry wrote in a letter to Goodell. “I urge you to treat this issue with the utmost seriousness as the case progresses. In light of the seriousness of the charges, I believe that Mr. Vick should be suspended from the League, effective immediately.” Due process be damned, I guess. Disappointing that an attorney and supposed defender of the Constitution would take that stance. He should know better. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/195 "2007-07-23T19:24:52Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] And it sounds like Sen. John Kerry, with one finger in the wind, is riding to the front of the lynch mob: Due process be damned, I guess. Disappointing that an attorney and supposed defender of the Constitution would take that stance. He should know better. [/QUOTE] Politicians typically don’t know better. One of the best stories from the Manson case involved Nixon calling Manson guilty while the trial was still going on, and Manson smuggling the paper headline into court the next day and flashing it to the sequestered jurors. This required all of the jurors to be interviewed in detail to show that they hadn’t been unduly influenced by the President’s comments. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/196 "2007-07-23T20:26:14Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Politicians typically don’t know better. [/QUOTE] Politicians, maybe not, but Kerry is a lawyer - a former prosecutor, no less. God, he’s a tool. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/197 "2007-07-23T20:39:22Z")
Right. Nixon was a lawyer as well. Let’s keep in mind that neither of these guys had really practiced law for some decades at the time of these comments. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/198 "2007-07-23T21:23:38Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] [Sounds like the commissioner is trying to talk Vick into taking a paid leave](http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-nfl21jul21,1,7284687.story?coll=la-headlines-sports&track=crosspromo). (The implicit threat may be that if Vick doesn’t take a paid leave, he will get an unpaid one.) And it sounds like Sen. John Kerry, with one finger in the wind, is riding to the front of the lynch mob: Due process be damned, I guess. Disappointing that an attorney and supposed defender of the Constitution would take that stance. He should know better. [/QUOTE] There are some situations where an indictment can and does take folks out of their jobs pending results of a criminal case - I’ve known of prison guards and parole agents who were suspended from their jobs (with pay) pending results. And a teacher accused of sexual misconduct can expect to be suspended pending results of trial as well. The issue is generally if it’s with or without pay. I suspended an employee w/o pay pending results of an internal investigation over banking irregularities (without a criminal indictment). ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/199 "2007-07-23T21:26:38Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Right. Nixon was a lawyer as well. Let’s keep in mind that neither of these guys had really practiced law for some decades at the time of these comments. [/QUOTE] Hey, since when do **YOU** defend the liberal while **I** call him a tool? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/200 "2007-07-23T21:42:52Z")
**wring** , in the cases you cite, the concern is that having the person on the job may well result in further harm. The person is accused of a crime which calls into question their faithfulness or trustworthiness _in performing their job_. In Vick’s case, he has been indicted for a crime which has nothing to do with performance of his job. If he had been indicted for betting on football games, then it would be more analogous to the situations you mention. And even in _that_ case, I think suspension _with pay_ would be the appropriate way to go, pending outcome of the legal proceedings. (Innocent until proven guilty, and all that.) I actually think the commissioner’s proposal is best for all concerned. It’s a leave of absence with pay, so Vick is not being financially punished based solely on unproven accusations. At the same time, it forestalls the circus which would surely ensue if Vick were to play this year, something the NFL doesn’t need. And from Vick’s perspective, it allows him to focus his full attention on defending himself. It’s a win-win proposal (with the losers, I guess, being Arthur Blank and Falcons ticketholders). The article says Vick is determined to play, though, so who knows how this will all turn out? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198.md?page=11)