# Michael Vick = idiot! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 17, 2007, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198 "2007-07-17T23:50:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2007, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/221 "2007-07-24T21:32:58Z")
But you don’t have a right not to be suspended/fired for being under indictment. The government cannot imprison you for it, but I am generally entitled to fire your ass, refuse to speak to you, or ban you from dating my daughter for getting arrested/indicted, regardless of the conviction. There is no federal or state right to play professional football. On edit - OK, that’s not true, they can imprison you for it to the extent of remand before trial… but you know what I mean… ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2007, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/222 "2007-07-24T21:46:03Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] If league rules are in contradiction to legal rights they are unenforceable. [/QUOTE] but these aren’t. He doesn’t have a legal 'RIGHT" to play football for the NFL. Some things one cannot be compelled to give up under contract laws, certainly, but I can certainly think of several that can be. Many occupations require that you give up certain rights under the law. One has a “right” against unreasonable search and seizure, however, it’s pretty common that companies will demand post accident drug testing (as well as random). One has a ‘right’ to privacy, but there are occupations where you must have a phone number listed in the phone book (parole agent in my area for example). If memory serves, military personnel must answer questions put to them by their superiors, even if the answer will incriminate them (hence the ‘don’t ask don’t tell’ policy - the ‘don’t ask’ had to be in there). ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2007, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/223 "2007-07-24T21:50:09Z")
Not that they would do it, but as long they don’t discriminate based on gender, race, etc. could the NFL, if they chose to, simply say “guilty or not, we don’t want this guy in our league?” ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/224 "2007-07-25T00:41:06Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn] Not that they would do it, but as long they don’t discriminate based on gender, race, etc. could the NFL, if they chose to, simply say “guilty or not, we don’t want this guy in our league?” [/QUOTE] Discrimination is not the issue. Breach of contract is the issue. And whether Vick could be banned from the league without violation of his contract depends on the _wording_ of the relevant agreements, including the player’s contract with his team, the league’s rules of conduct (to the extent they are incorporated into the emplyment agreement) and the [Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA)](http://www.nflpa.org/CBA/CBA_Complete.aspx) (between the Union and the league), which would also be incorporated into the player’s contract. Incidentally, the four-game suspension proposed by the Falcons today is right out of the CBA – the maximum club-imposed penalty under the CBA, in fact: > [@](#): > > Conduct detrimental to Club—maximum fine of an amount equal to one week’s salary and/or suspension without pay for a period not to exceed four (4) weeks. This maximum applies without limitation to any deactivation of a player in response to player conduct (other than a deactivation in response to a player’s onfield playing ability), and any such deactivation, even with pay, shall be considered discipline subject to the limits set forth in this section. The Non-Injury Grievance Arbitrator’s decision in Terrell Owens (Nov. 23, 2005) is thus expressly overruled as to any Club decision to deactivate a player in response to the player’s conduct. [Here is the form for an NFL player’s contract (pdf) (Appendix C to the CBA)](http://www.nflpa.org/cba/cba_pdf/Appendix_C_NFL_Player_Contract.pdf). It includes some specific language about conduct: > [@](#): > > 1. INTEGRITY OF GAME. Player recognizes the detriment to the League and professional football that would result from impairment of public confidence in the honest and orderly conduct of NFL games or the integrity and good character of NFL players. Player therefore acknowledges his awareness that if he accepts a bribe or agrees to throw or fix an NFL game; fails to promptly report a bribe offer or an attempt to throw or fix an NFL game; bets on an NFL game; **knowingly associates with gamblers or gambling activity** ; uses or provides other players with stimulants or other drugs for the purpose of attempting to enhance on-field performance; **or is guilty of any other form of conduct reasonably judged by the League Commissioner to be detrimental to the League or professional football** , the Commissioner will have the right, but only after giving Player the opportunity for a hearing at which he may be represented by counsel of his choice, to fine Player in a reasonable amount; to suspend Player for a period certain or indefinitely; and/or to terminate this contract. Now we’re getting somewhere. _There’s_ the clause that gives the Commissioner his power. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/225 "2007-07-25T03:21:51Z")
Can he get a team full of football players to overlook this? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/226 "2007-07-25T13:07:49Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] Incidentally, the four-game suspension proposed by the Falcons today is right out of the CBA – the maximum club-imposed penalty under the CBA, in fact: [Here is the form for an NFL player’s contract (pdf) (Appendix C to the CBA)](http://www.nflpa.org/cba/cba_pdf/Appendix_C_NFL_Player_Contract.pdf). It includes some specific language about conduct: [/QUOTE] Paragraph 15 is what is usually cited, but many are pointing out what paragraph 11 says: “If at any time, in the sole judgment of Club, Player’s skill or performance has been unsatisfactory as compared with that of other players competing for positions on Club’s roster, or\*\*\* if Player has engaged in personal conduct reasonably judged by Club to adversely affect or reflect on Club, then Club may terminate his contract.”\*\*\* Book it: Vick never plays in the NFL again. ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/227 "2007-07-25T13:18:06Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Can he get a team full of football players to overlook this? [/QUOTE] The handful of Falcons who I have heard interveiwed all support him- I haven’t heard any current player come out and bash him yet. The easiest way for this to solve itself would be for the Falcons to release him and no other team pick him up. As long as there is no proven collusion on the part of the owners, this is not illegal and not unheard of. It can be debated, but in the NBA, Chris Jackson, Dennis Rodman, JR Rider, etc. all were able to play at the NBA level when teams just decided they weren’t worth the hassle. Plus two years from now he’ll be slower, and two years removed from the game, so its possible. Also, its not like the Falcons did anything the last two years with him as the QB anyway. You can go 7-9 with many QB’s, ones that aren’t going to have your games protested each week. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/228 "2007-07-25T13:37:46Z")
[QUOTE=furt] Paragraph 15 is what is usually cited, but many are pointing out what paragraph 11 says: “If at any time, in the sole judgment of Club, Player’s skill or performance has been unsatisfactory as compared with that of other players competing for positions on Club’s roster, or\*\*\* if Player has engaged in personal conduct reasonably judged by Club to adversely affect or reflect on Club, then Club may terminate his contract.”\*\*\* [/quote] Yes, of course the club can terminate him. But I don’t think the club really wants to do that. If they did, they already would have. [QUOTE=furt] Book it: Vick never plays in the NFL again. [/QUOTE] If he’s convicted, I agree. If he is acquitted, he’ll be back. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2007, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/229 "2007-07-26T17:16:00Z")
[Biffle on Vick: ‘I wish they’d put him in jail’](http://msn.foxsports.com/nascar/story/7061984?MSNHPHMA) Huh. I’ve always thought Greg was a good driver, but personally never really cared for him (no particular reason, just didn’t like him that much). This makes me like him just a little bit more. Good for you, Greg! ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2007, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/230 "2007-07-26T19:09:19Z")
[Deion Sanders seems to think Vick was involved in the enterprise](http://deadspin.com/sports/deion-hates-dogs/deion-sanders-finds-dogfighting-quite-exciting-actually-282772.php): > [@](#): > > I believe Vick had a passion for dogfighting. I know many athletes who share his passion. The allure is the intensity and the challenge of a dog fighting to the death. It’s like ultimate fighting, but the dog doesn’t tap out when he knows he can’t win. Sounds like Sanders is kind of into it, too. Along with who-knows-how-many other current and former NFL players. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/231 "2007-07-27T17:01:46Z")
Vick is getting picketed at the court and the practice field is being picketed. They will have to give up on Vick. Sanders will not pay for all the empty seats. ESPN experts are pretty much in agreement that his career is over. ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/232 "2007-07-27T17:14:02Z")
What he’s obviously going to do is stand by the not guilty bit, no matter what they have on him- the witnesses are going to be either there to save their ass or to get money, any video will be faked, any phone calls will be explained away, money transfers will have an alternative explanation- anything the prosecution presents, they’ll say is fake or racially motivated or whatever, just like OJ. He will never admit culpability, and he will get mythical Mumia Jamal or OJ or Hurricane Carter status in the urban community, even if jailed. What discredits this, name one other black athlete who has been charged like this? I don’t recall anyone doing this to Jordan, or Barkley, or Deion Sanders, Barry Sanders, etc- why are they singling Vick out? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/233 "2007-07-27T18:51:12Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn] What discredits this, name one other black athlete who has been charged like this? I don’t recall anyone doing this to Jordan, or Barkley, or Deion Sanders, Barry Sanders, etc- why are they singling Vick out? [/QUOTE] OH, I dunno – maybe none of those guys were funding and running a dog-fighting operation? None of them got nailed with enough evidence to bring indictments? Are you claiming that all the athletes you named have dog breeding, training, and fighting facilities on the scale of Vicks’ operation? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/234 "2007-07-27T19:05:36Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] OH, I dunno – maybe none of those guys were funding and running a dog-fighting operation? None of them got nailed with enough evidence to bring indictments? Are you claiming that all the athletes you named have dog breeding, training, and fighting facilities on the scale of Vicks’ operation? [/QUOTE] I think what Wee Bairn was saying is that the defense of “He’s being singled out because of his race!” wouldn’t hold up since other black athletes haven’t had these accusations levied against them. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/235 "2007-07-27T19:08:44Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] I think what Wee Bairn was saying is that the defense of “He’s being singled out because of his race!” wouldn’t hold up since other black athletes haven’t had these accusations levied against them. [/QUOTE] Ah. Perhaps you’re right. Though the point, I have to say, was confusingly made. If that in fact was the point. Upon rereading, and then rereading again, I still couldn’t be sure. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/236 "2007-07-27T20:21:54Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Sanders will not pay for all the empty seats. [/QUOTE] 😕 I don’t get your meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/237 "2007-07-27T21:26:34Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] I think what Wee Bairn was saying is that the defense of “He’s being singled out because of his race!” wouldn’t hold up since other black athletes haven’t had these accusations levied against them. [/QUOTE] Right on- thanks- I could have definitely phrased it better 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2007, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/238 "2007-07-28T01:29:27Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn] Right on- thanks- I could have definitely phrased it better 🙂 [/QUOTE] Okay, then. Sorry I misinterpreted what you meant. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2007, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/239 "2007-07-28T02:35:13Z")
The circle may be closing. Looks like [one of Vick’s codefendants is ready to cop a plea](http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/falcons/stories/2007/07/27/0728plea.html). ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2007, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/240 "2007-07-28T14:25:01Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] 😕 I don’t get your meaning. [/QUOTE] Sanders claims it is no big deal. However dog lovers take this stuff on a personal level. There will be empty seats due to what Sanders thinks is no big thing. Plus it has been argued that Vick built the house for dog fighting. Big home in country. Well fenced in. Kennels and fighting rings built. Can be seen as fishy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198.md?page=13)