# Michael Vick = idiot! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 17, 2007, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198 "2007-07-17T23:50:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2007, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/241 "2007-07-28T17:45:05Z")
I just want to chime in and say that this case is turning into a very hard case for me to follow “innocent before proven guilty”. It seems to me that the only way he could be MORE guilty is if they had video of him killing a dog and fucking it’s corpse. I bet $5 that there are some videos out there that will surface of Vick at a dog fight cheering his dog on. $5. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2007, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/242 "2007-07-28T20:22:34Z")
[QUOTE=Stinkpalm] I just want to chime in and say that this case is turning into a very hard case for me to follow “innocent before proven guilty”. [/QUOTE] There’s an awful lot of smoke. I would be surprised if there weren’t a fire. Still, I think we ought to let the process play out. There was a lot of smoke in the Duke lacrosse case, too. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2007, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/243 "2007-07-28T23:13:39Z")
Sports news says his two co defendants are going to turn on him Monday. ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/244 "2007-07-29T00:34:54Z")
I am hoping those who turn on him have tangible proof other than hearsay, otherwise even Marcia Clark could ram home the possibility that they are lying to save their ass. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/245 "2007-07-29T00:42:36Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] There was a lot of smoke in the Duke lacrosse case, too. [/QUOTE] No, there wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/246 "2007-07-29T01:47:29Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] No, there wasn’t. [/QUOTE] Yeah, there was. I don’t want to re-hash the Duke lacrosse case, but a lot of people were jumping to conclusions there too, based on: troubled history of defendants presence at scene victim’s testimony DA’s pronouncements, and the assumption he had evidence to back them up That turned out to be all smoke and no fire, of course. And I still don’t think we can rule out that possibility in Vick’s case. I am content to wait until I hear actual testimony, subject to cross-examination, before declaring him guilty. I _suspect_ he is guilty, but let’s wait and see, shall we? Is there any reason he has to be assumed guilty **right this very minute**? What’s the rush? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/247 "2007-07-29T19:17:35Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] Yeah, there was. I don’t want to re-hash the Duke lacrosse case, [/quote] Seems like you rehashed it anyway. The accused had no troubled history. Their “trouble” consisted of perfectly normal college hijinks. Presence at scene begs the question. The accuser’s testimony changed every time she opened her mouth. Nifong’s biggest pronouncement was that DNA would prove their guilt, but the DNA quickly exonerated them, long before indictments came down. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/248 "2007-07-29T20:55:11Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] The accused had no troubled history. Their “trouble” consisted of perfectly normal college hijinks. Presence at scene begs the question. The accuser’s testimony changed every time she opened her mouth. Nifong’s biggest pronouncement was that DNA would prove their guilt, but the DNA quickly exonerated them, long before indictments came down. [/QUOTE] You are looking at the case with the benefit of hindsight. At the time of the initial media rush, there was plenty of smoke, and people fell all over themselves to condemn the players. Only upon closer examination did the smoke dissipate. I say we give Vick the benefit of the doubt until either a) he admits wrongdoing; or b) testimony is offered against him _subject to cross-examination_. (And by the way, [this](http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1091879/) does not qualify as “normal college hijinks.”) ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/249 "2007-07-29T22:14:03Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] You are looking at the case with the benefit of hindsight. At the time of the initial media rush, there was plenty of smoke, and people fell all over themselves to condemn the players. Only upon closer examination did the smoke dissipate. I say we give Vick the benefit of the doubt until either a) he admits wrongdoing; or b) testimony is offered against him _subject to cross-examination_. (And by the way, [this](http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1091879/) does not qualify as “normal college hijinks.”) [/QUOTE] A bar fight resulting in misdemeanor charges and minor injuries qualfies as normal college hijinks in my book. Certainly less serious than, say, DWI, no? And I’m not applying hindsight. As I’ve said, the gaping holes in the prosecution’s case were already widely known _before_ indictments came down. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/250 "2007-07-29T22:29:40Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] Yeah, there was. I don’t want to re-hash the Duke lacrosse case, but a lot of people were jumping to conclusions there too, based on: troubled history of defendants presence at scene victim’s testimony DA’s pronouncements, and the assumption he had evidence to back them up [/QUOTE] If I accuse you of raping me in your home, I’m already half way to having “smoke” simply because you were in your home (presence at the “scene”) and I’m the “victim”. There was no smoke in that case. There was hot air. This case isn’t some ham and egger small town prosecutor. These are federal charges, which are not made lightly and are not made until they’re pretty damn sure that they’ve already got the nails in the coffin. I think everyone (well, everyone sane) agrees that Vick shouldn’t be sent to jail without a trial that shows guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. But, in thinking that the guy is guilty and therefore an asshole, the bar is much lower. They’ve met my “the guy is guilty and an asshole” bar, but not yet my “send his ass to prison” bar. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/251 "2007-07-29T23:23:06Z")
To many football is a sport. To the team owners it is a business. If the Falcons think he will hurt gate, Vick is gone. They do not want any grief. And absolutely will not let him cost the team money. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/252 "2007-07-30T00:56:46Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] A bar fight resulting in misdemeanor charges and minor injuries qualfies as normal college hijinks in my book. Certainly less serious than, say, DWI, no? [/QUOTE] No, it’s not less serious. Not when it sounds like an unprovoked assault apparently fueled by bigotry. Hijinks my ass. That episode shows a predisposition to unprovoked violence, and that counts as “smoke” in _my_ book. If you just consider that just boyish fun, well, some self-examination may be in order. To put it mildly. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/253 "2007-07-30T16:26:15Z")
Co defendent Taylor turned on Vick today according to sports TV. He was the guy who built up the dog fighting band training facilities,supposedly according to Vicks instructions and financing. They claim his list of charges will be increased. Four others are testifying against him. It does not look good. ---
**Author:** ![drm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@drm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drm)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/254 "2007-07-30T17:13:15Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Co defendent Taylor turned on Vick today according to sports TV. He was the guy who built up the dog fighting band training facilities,supposedly according to Vicks instructions and financing. They claim his list of charges will be increased. Four others are testifying against him. It does not look good. [/QUOTE] Vick either has some really shitty friends or he’s actually guilty. I can’t really see a third option here. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/255 "2007-07-30T17:15:14Z")
[QUOTE=drm] Vick either has some really shitty friends or he’s actually guilty. I can’t really see a third option here. [/QUOTE] Well, he could have some really shitty friends AND he’s actually guilty. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![drm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@drm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drm)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/256 "2007-07-30T17:26:36Z")
[QUOTE=OtakuLoki] Well, he could have some really shitty friends AND he’s actually guilty. 😉 [/QUOTE] Heh, true, forgot about that one. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/257 "2007-07-31T13:09:02Z")
Yeah, for all the BS about omerta in the mob or gangsta pop culture, everyone sure does turn on each other real fast in real life! ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/258 "2007-07-31T13:12:17Z")
I think ESPN said the one guy who has already turned on him had a “falling out” with Vick about three years ago, which his lawyers will eat up. Hopefully someone will turn on him who is still friends with him. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/259 "2007-07-31T13:32:12Z")
It doesn’t matter if they’re still friends or not friends, what matters is if they can get a witness that doesn’t have a vested interest in saying whatever the Feds want him to say. Someone who doesn’t have a felony conviction hanging over their heads unless they finger the Big Fish. That’s the only thing I see at this point that will save Vick’s ass, an argument that witnesses were coached or encouraged to say that Vick was present in exchange for lighter sentences. Maybe the Feds have some other sort of corroborating evidence, but if it’s all based on statements from people who are making a deal on their personal felony charges, I can see a good lawyer making headway with that. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198/260 "2007-07-31T14:48:23Z")
[QUOTE=Cheesesteak] Maybe the Feds have some other sort of corroborating evidence, but if it’s all based on statements from people who are making a deal on their personal felony charges, I can see a good lawyer making headway with that. [/QUOTE] Just guessing here, but if I were the Feds I’d follow the money. Not only that Vick bought the site, not only that he paid to build the house, but whose money was it that paid for all the dog fighting facilities? Assuming there are bookkeeping records of all that, invoices saved, etc., showing Vick’s participation in funding the operation, the Feds could make a very strong case even without witness testimony. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick-idiot/412198.md?page=14)