# Michael Vick **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 22, 2007, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick/416475 "2007-08-22T07:42:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![copperwindow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@copperwindow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/copperwindow)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2007, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick/416475/1 "2007-08-22T07:42:34Z")
A few questions about what’s going on with Michael Vick. First, how do we know (or suspect) that Vick personally executed dogs? What evidence is there, or did the other suspect tell that to the prosecutors? Secondly, how do you kill a trained pit bull who’s been trained to attack with your bare hands? Finally, wikipedia claims that Vick will have to “forfeit the Surry County estate to the federal government”. If there was a mortgage on the property, would the government have to pay it? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2007, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick/416475/2 "2007-08-22T08:22:03Z")
[QUOTE=copperwindow] A few questions about what’s going on with Michael Vick. First, how do we know (or suspect) that Vick personally executed dogs? What evidence is there, or did the other suspect tell that to the prosecutors? [/quote] Witness testimony to the Grand Jury, which was included in the indictment. You can read it [here](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0717072vick1.html). If Vick were to go to trial, the cooperating witnesses from the indictment would probably be called to testify as to what they saw. After the indictment, three of Vick’s co-defendants struck plea-bargain deals in exchange for testifying against Vick. That’s when he decided to plead guilty as well. > [@](#): > > Secondly, how do you kill a trained pit bull who’s been trained to attack with your bare hands? The dogs were most likely restrained when they were killed. It’s pretty easy to beat a collared, muzzled pit bull to death if it can’t fight back. > [@](#): > > Finally, wikipedia claims that Vick will have to “forfeit the Surry County estate to the federal government”. If there was a mortgage on the property, would the government have to pay it? Now that’s an interesting question. ---
**Author:** ![Will\_Repair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a698b9/32.png) [@Will\_Repair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Will_Repair)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2007, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick/416475/3 "2007-08-22T08:27:31Z")
[QUOTE=copperwindow] First, how do we know (or suspect) that Vick personally executed dogs? [/QUOTE] Co-defendant testimony: [http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/08/17/vick/index.html?imw=Y&iref=mpstoryemail](http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/08/17/vick/index.html?imw=Y&iref=mpstoryemail) [QUOTE=copperwindow] Secondly, how do you kill a trained pit bull who’s been trained to attack with your bare hands? [/QUOTE] Even senior citizens can: > **[Digg - AI news, before it trends](https://digg.com/offbeat_news/Senior_citizen_kills_attacking_pit_bull_with_bare_hands)** > > See what's next in AI before it trends. Digg watches the people who move first. [QUOTE=copperwindow] If there was a mortgage on the property, would the government have to pay it? [/QUOTE] From [http://www.firstam.com/content.cfm?id=2922](http://www.firstam.com/content.cfm?id=2922) : In an interesting case of first impression, U.S. v. Harrris, 2001 LEXIS 5549, 2001 FED App. 0096P (6th Cir. April 4, 2001), the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that mortgage lenders could collect a prepayment premium as provided in their respective loan agreements where the property subject to their respective mortgages was forfeited to the government, and later sold by the government, as the result of a criminal forfeiture proceeding against the debtor. The mortgagees were innocent third-party lenders, each of whom had a valid first-priority lien against the respective mortgaged properties, which were owned by entities controlled by the debtor. Under the terms of the mortgage lenders’ prepayment-premium provisions, a prepayment consideration became due upon any event of default under the loan documents. The lenders accelerated their respective loans for failure to make the scheduled loan payments, and commenced foreclosure before the government’s seizure of the properties as the result of its criminal forfeiture proceeding against the debtor. The lenders submitted loan payoff figures to the government, including prepayment premiums in the aggregate amount of more than $1,700,000. ---
**Author:** ![copperwindow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@copperwindow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/copperwindow)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2007, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick/416475/4 "2007-08-22T08:27:48Z")
[QUOTE=friedo] The dogs were most likely restrained when they were killed. It’s pretty easy to beat a collared, muzzled pit bull to death if it can’t fight back. [/QUOTE] How do you restrain an attack dog without it ripping you head off? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2007, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick/416475/5 "2007-08-22T08:34:13Z")
[QUOTE=copperwindow] How do you restrain an attack dog without it ripping you head off? [/QUOTE] These are dogs, not werewolves. They do not spend their entire lives ripping the heads off anything that moves. They fight when they are provoked by a human or another dog. ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2007, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick/416475/6 "2007-08-22T13:53:07Z")
[QUOTE=copperwindow] How do you restrain an attack dog without it ripping you head off? [/QUOTE] I have used a rabies pole (aka catch pole) as in this picture: [http://leerburg.com/pitbull.htm](http://leerburg.com/pitbull.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2007, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick/416475/7 "2007-08-22T14:13:22Z")
[QUOTE=copperwindow] how do you kill a trained pit bull who’s been trained to attack with your bare hands? [/QUOTE] Those pit bulls have also been trained not to attack human handlers, since doing so would cause them to be disqualified from a fight. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2007, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick/416475/8 "2007-08-22T14:20:29Z")
The indictment doesn’t exactly accuse Vick of _personally_ executing a dog. The other defendants are clearly and directly accused of _personally_ executing dogs at various places in the indictment. As to Vick, there are two pertinent allegations: > [@](#): > > 1. In or about March of 2003, PEACE, after consulting with VICK about the losing female pit bull’s condition, executed the dog by wetting the dog down with water and electrocuting the animal Doesn’t sound like Vick participated personally in that execution. We don’t know whether Vick was “consulted” in person or by telephone. We don’t know whether Vick was present. We don’t know whether Vick authorized the execution. We don’t know whether Vick knew what means of execution would be used. Paragraph 83 comes closer to accusing Vick of personal involvement in executions: > [@](#): > > 1. In or about April, 2007, PEACE, PHILLIPS, and VICK executed approximately eight dogs that did not perform well in “testing” sessions at 1915 Moonlight Road by various methods, including hanging, drowning, and slamming at least one dog’s body to the ground. It is not clear from this allegation whether Vick is supposed to have personally killed any dogs. I suspect that if Vick had killed a dog with his own hands, the indictment would have spelled that out. Because it doesn’t, I imagine that the grand jury testimony showed Vick was merely present while the dogs were being killed. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2007, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick/416475/9 "2007-08-22T14:40:31Z")
[QUOTE=copperwindow] If there was a mortgage on the property, would the government have to pay it? [/QUOTE] Presumably, Vick at least has some equity in the property (equity being the difference between the market value of the property and the amount of the mortgage). He probably just owns the property outright. But even if there is a mortgage, the government will just sell the property, use the proceeds to pay off the mortgage, and keep whatever is left over. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2007, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick/416475/10 "2007-08-22T15:07:27Z")
My understanding is that the dogs being killed were the losers of fights, and were in pretty bad shape at the time of the executions. **Spoke’s** post above confirms it. Also, as **Xema** points out, these dogs were predisposed to think of Vick and friends as the “pack leaders” and as caretakers, not as prey. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2007, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick/416475/11 "2007-08-22T15:12:29Z")
Anyone notice this Google Ad – > [@](#): > > LGBT Counseling & Therapy > Serving diverse needs of DC-area Lesbian, Gay, Bi, Trans ! ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2007, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick/416475/12 "2007-08-22T15:23:47Z")
Weird. The google ads I’m getting are all about anger management. Oh and then there’s one for Showtime’s _Weeds_. Which, I guess, is _sort of_ related. (Dude! Mellow out! Here, have a toke, bud!) ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2007, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick/416475/13 "2007-08-22T18:46:10Z")
According to pit bull websites I’ve visited, it’s generally asserted that pit bulls are as much genetically predisposed to NOT attack humans as they are to attack other dogs. “Human aggression is a very different thing from dog aggression” is how they put it. I’ve seen claims that people who breed commercially valuable pit bulls have to keep other breeds of dogs (the “guard breeds” like German Shepherds, Dobermans, etc.) to guard them – otherwise the pit bulls would be easily picked up by strangers. I’m told that this is the product of selective breeding so that handlers could reach into a dog fight and separate the dogs without getting bitten. I don’t know if it’s true. I do know that when our pit and pit-mix had some snapping while sorting out dominance (not a true fight), I was able to reach right in and grab the totally-focused, snarling dogs and separate them without injury. You can probably google up “human aggression in pit bulls” or something like that. Pit bulls do bite people – _when they’ve been trained to do so_ (even inadvertently trained…people are dumb). Sailboat ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2007, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick/416475/14 "2007-08-22T18:54:45Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] Weird. The google ads I’m getting are all about anger management. [/QUOTE] Makes me wonder whether there’s some GLBT “cure” group that’s advertising with keywords like “electrocution.” ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2007, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick/416475/15 "2007-08-22T20:40:50Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] Makes me wonder whether there’s some GLBT “cure” group that’s advertising with keywords like “electrocution.” [/QUOTE] Makes me wonder why people keep using browsers that allow ads onto their screen space. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2007, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick/416475/16 "2007-08-22T20:44:45Z")
[QUOTE=t-bonham@scc.net] Makes me wonder why people keep using browsers that allow ads onto their screen space. [/QUOTE] What, so you’re saying we can turn off the SDMB’s Google Ads? ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2007, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick/416475/17 "2007-08-22T20:53:49Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] What, so you’re saying we can turn off the SDMB’s Google Ads? [/QUOTE] It was a smarmy way of saying “get Firefox.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2007, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick/416475/18 "2007-08-22T20:54:59Z")
? I _have_ Firefox. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2007, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick/416475/19 "2007-08-22T21:00:43Z")
There’s an extension called Adblock that will keep the embedded ads off your screen, when enabled. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2007, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick/416475/20 "2007-08-22T21:12:23Z")
[QUOTE=Troy McClure SF] It was a smarmy way of saying “get Firefox.” [/QUOTE] No, there are lots of other browsers besides Firefox that also avoid these advertisements. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-vick/416475.md?page=2)