# Michelle Wie: Quit embarrassing yourself! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 16, 2006, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977 "2006-09-16T18:32:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/81 "2006-09-17T00:37:37Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] You don’t think she’s being manipulated by those forces??? It would be a rare 16-year-old indeed who wouldn’t be. She may have many fans who are not golf fans, but people who take the sport seriously generally think of her as a joke (when she’s playing on the PGA tour). I know a lot of serious golfers, and I can’t think of any who don’t. The same would be true if she were a 16 year old boy who hadn’t qulaified for a tournament on his own. It has nothing to do with her gender, it’s her skill level at this point. If she can eventually make it onto the PGA tour, then more power to her. Even then, it’s unlikely she’ll be anything more than a footnote in that tour’s stat book, though. [/QUOTE] You know, I take the sport seriously, am a golf fan, and I don’t think she’s a joke. Please stop speaking for me. Most pro golfers, male or female, turn out to be anything other than a footnote. Frankly, she’s already one hell of a footnote being invited to play in the mens tour at 17. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/82 "2006-09-17T00:45:30Z")
[QUOTE=Dangerosa] You know, I take the sport seriously, am a golf fan, and I don’t think she’s a joke. Please stop speaking for me. Most pro golfers, male or female, turn out to be anything other than a footnote. Frankly, she’s already one hell of a footnote being invited to play in the mens tour at 17. [/QUOTE] I didn’t say “all” serious golf fans. I said “generally”, which would imply “most”. I think that’s a safe assessment, even though it’s impossible to prove. > [@ECV](#): > > 14.8 If that’s true, then you spend quite a bit of time playing what you consider to be a chick’s sport. Since you’re “El Cid” and not “La Cid”, I assume you’re male. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/83 "2006-09-17T00:52:44Z")
My impression is that folks relally should be mad at the media for giving her more coverage than she deserves. It is the Brett Favre syndrome, I am a Packer fan and think BF is great, but the media drooling over him leads to resentment. I get that. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/84 "2006-09-17T00:54:48Z")
She does not drive with the men. She was using 2 or t3 clubs more on almost every hole. She needs to win with the women to prove herself. She does not need to play for money. She is heavily endorsed. But if she doesn’t show sucess ,they will dissappear. I wonder if her psyche is able to survive. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/85 "2006-09-17T00:55:15Z")
[QUOTE=Gangster Octopus] My impression is that folks relally should be mad at the media for giving her more coverage than she deserves. It is the Brett Favre syndrome, I am a Packer fan and think BF is great, but the media drooling over him leads to resentment. I get that. [/QUOTE] Yes, as I said in the OP the media is largely at fault. But that doesn’t mean she needs to be their chump if she doesn’t want to be. Pretty soon they’re going to wise up to the fact that just can’t compete on the PGA tour and they’ll drop her like a rotten fish. They’re screwing with her career for their own short term gain. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/86 "2006-09-17T01:00:02Z")
[QUOTE=VarlosZ] I don’t think that’s an accurate comparison. Both golfers and baseball players will have low leverage and high leverage situations – that is, situations where their performance in a given at bat (or stroke) will have a very small effect on their chances of winning, and situations in which a given at bat has a very large effect on their chances. Sure, a golfer’s chip-in on the 18th hole on Thursday could wind up being the difference between winning and losing (just like a single in the 2nd inning), but from an expectation standpoint the effect is very small. It might increase a player’s chance of winning the tournament from 2% to 2.5%, say. That same chip-in on the 18th hole on Sunday might, given the right circumstances, be the difference between a 20% chance of winning and a 100chance. The difference between gaining a 0.5% share of a victory and an 80% share of a victory is huge, and to say that “every shot a golfer makes is a [Qclutch shot” is not to give an accurate representation of the situation. [/QUOTE] Hmm. You seem to have a much better grasp of statistics than I, so please correct me when necessary. A batter can go 0 for 5 and still have a significant positive effect on the outcome. A golfer who whiffs 5 shots has no hope of winning. A fielder can play an entire game and handle no chances at all. A golfer is necesarily involved in every play. A batter has maybe five at bats a game; a few more if you consider significant plate appearances. A golfer is necessarily involved in every play. A golf course has 18 holes, a baseball game 9 innings. It is always possible in baseball to come back from a huge deficit. Unless you are the last batter in the last inning, your performance is not _absolutely_ crucial. It is not possible in golf to come back from a huge deficit, You can be playing the 15th hole and have no chance of winning, because another player has finished 4 rounds in fewer strokes than you have already taken. Each stroke is _crucial_ in a way that is only true in baseball for the batter who makes the last out. And only crucial for him once. > [@](#): > > Anyway, my point is that baseball has similar swings in “clutch” and “non-clutch” situations, and no matter how vital or trivial the situation, players tend to perform the same. I still don’t see any reason that it would be any different for golfers. All strokes are counted. A good golfer does not care what other golfers are doing. Anyone who finds himself in a position to win has made countless ‘clutch’ shots to get there, because all strokes are counted. Many baseball games are ‘meaningless,’ in that they are played between clubs who have been eliminated from the pennant race. In effect, none of those strokes ‘count.’ Hell, teams often pull up players from the minors when they have been eliminated. In short, I agree with you that players in clutch situations in team sports tend to perform the same as in non clutch situations. I remain unconvinced that the same holds true for golf. > [@](#): > > Nitpick Alert: > > Actually, you should take into account that a walk is a successful plate appearance, and a .350 OBP is about average. You could say that 40% success rate is phenomenal, instead. Fair enough, I suppose. The point obtains, however. 40% wouldn’t cut it my favorite local tournament of old, the Your Fly Is Open. And we were drunk as a hundred hoot owls by the second hole. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/87 "2006-09-17T01:01:21Z")
I have no idea why there is a title in my previous post, or what it means. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/88 "2006-09-17T01:06:12Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Yes, as I said in the OP the media is largely at fault. But that doesn’t mean she needs to be their chump if she doesn’t want to be. Pretty soon they’re going to wise up to the fact that just can’t compete on the PGA tour and they’ll drop her like a rotten fish. They’re screwing with her career for their own short term gain. [/QUOTE] well, that is fine if you believe that is what happening. Myself and others have different opinions, the right ones (I keed I keed). ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/89 "2006-09-17T01:14:31Z")
[QUOTE=Dangerosa] Frankly, she’s already one hell of a footnote being invited to play in the mens tour at 17. [/QUOTE] You mispelled 'sideshow". That’s all she is right now, a sideshow for our amusement. Let’s toss the little girl to the wolves and watch her get chewed up and spit out week after week. Or did you not watch that sad display at the John Deere? She’s not invited to play because she’s good enough to compete, it’s because she’ll draw an audience. Eventually, people will tire of the sideshow and won’t bother tuning in to see her miss the cut for the 20th time. When that audience goes away, so will her invitations. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/90 "2006-09-17T01:19:56Z")
Let’s also keep in mind that the only reason she’s invited is **because she is a girl**. There are plenty of 16-year-old boys out there who are every bit as good or better than she is. Hell, there are other females who are better than she is (obviously). If that’s not a sideshow, I don’t know what is. No one thinks she has any chance of winning. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/91 "2006-09-17T01:25:14Z")
[QUOTE=mhendo] Sure, but nowhere near as much as there is to be made on the men’s tour. The 100th player on the PGA money list for 2006—a guy i’ve never heard of,\* and who hasn’t won a single tournament—has made more money than the 14th-placed woman on the LPGA tour. On the men’s tour, 69 players have over $1 million in prizemoney, while only 7 women have made seven figures this year. I’m not arguing whether this is right or wrong. I’m merely saying that, given these numbers, isn’t it at least a little understandable that someone might take their chances and play on the men’s tour? [PGA Money Leaders](http://www.pga.com/tournaments/money-leaders/pga_money_leaders.cfm) [LPGA Money Leaders](http://www.pga.com/tournaments/money-leaders/lpga_money_leaders.cfm) - that doesn’t mean much; i’m not a great fan of golf [/QUOTE] I’m not at all sure that money is the incentive. She already has quite a pile from endorsement contract. As far as I know she has yet to win on the women’s tour and might be better off using that like men aspirants use their “other” tour. Yes indeep, **Zoe** , men do finish last on the men’s tour. And they miss the cut and don’t make a dime. However, if they do that regularly they don’t stay on the tour long. And the fact is that you can make more money on the men’s than on the womens. A list of money winners is in given above. I would like to point out that yes, a guy you never hear of, Greg Owen, has won over $1 million so far. I would also like to point out that his scoring average is 71.14 strokes/18 hole round. That’s about 1 under par for most courses they play. Wie is shooting 77’s and 81’s. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/92 "2006-09-17T01:34:32Z")
For comparison I offer the similarly named **Mark Wiebe**. Turned pro in 1980, played 499 tournaments missed 211 cuts, 164th in all time money earnings. In 2006 played 10 tournaments 9 missed cuts, withdrew after worst first round of the year (81) in other event. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/93 "2006-09-17T01:39:37Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > In short, I agree with you that players in clutch situations in team sports tend to perform the same as in non clutch situations. I remain unconvinced that the same holds true for golf. Yeah, as you point out, there are plenty of differences between golf and baseball, any number of which might change the dynamic of “clutch” performances. Since I don’t have any evidence, I can hardly be too sure (in fact, my quick Google searches would suggest that no one has ever done a statistical analysis of clutch golfing). Still, I do want to ask one question: if every shot a pro golfer hits is a clutch shot, then shouldn’t it follow that there would be no difference in a golfer’s performance as the tournament goes on and he gets closer to victory? Finally, off-topic: > [@](#): > > A batter can go 0 for 5 and still have a significant positive effect on the outcome. In theory this is true, but a player who goes 0 for 5 with no walks is really hurting his team at the plate, while opportunities to make a big difference in the field are relatively rare. A player who goes 0 for 5 but makes all of the routine plays at 2B isn’t even really helping his team in the field, since they could have gotten a minor league scrub to make the routine plays, and even he’d be expected to get on base once or twice. Even a player who goes 0 for 5 but makes an incredible, game-saving play in the field might not have had to make that incredible play if he had gone 2 for 5. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/94 "2006-09-17T01:42:55Z")
Well look John, it’s like bass fishing, there’s no reason why a chick shouldn’t be good at it. I enjoy golf and I don’t have a problem playing against a woman or with a party of women. On the other hand there’s tennis, where I’ll never be able to play casually against a woman without sandbagging. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/95 "2006-09-17T01:49:19Z")
[QUOTE=mhendo] Sure, but nowhere near as much as there is to be made on the men’s tour. The 100th player on the PGA money list for 2006—a guy i’ve never heard of,\* and who hasn’t won a single tournament—has made more money than the 14th-placed woman on the LPGA tour. On the men’s tour, 69 players have over $1 million in prizemoney, while only 7 women have made seven figures this year. I’m not arguing whether this is right or wrong. I’m merely saying that, given these numbers, isn’t it at least a little understandable that someone might take their chances and play on the men’s tour? [/QUOTE] Only from the standpoint of endorsements. If you don’t make the cut, you don’t make any money. To give you an example, a typical first place prize on the LPGA tour is about $200k. That equates to maybe 3rd or 4th place in a PGA tour event. Wie has an excellent chance to place 1st in an LPGA event, and essentially zero chance of being anywhere near the top 10 in a PGA event. This year so far she’s won \> $700k on the LPGA and $0 on the PGA. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/96 "2006-09-17T01:49:30Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Let’s also keep in mind that the only reason she’s invited is **because she is a girl**. There are plenty of 16-year-old boys out there who are every bit as good or better than she is. Hell, there are other females who are better than she is (obviously). If that’s not a sideshow, I don’t know what is. No one thinks she has any chance of winning. [/QUOTE] What’s wrong with being a sideshow? It’s not as if being a sideshow from others’ perspective makes the experience meaningless for her, and being a (well-compensated) sideshow now won’t stop her from being something more significant later on. No one expects the handful of amateurs who play in the majors every year to compete for the title or even to come close – half the time, none of them make the cut. But they’re there because people like to see them there, and because it’s an honor for them to compete at the highest level even if they have no shot whatsoever. Why is it ok for male amateurs to get embarassed by the pros for free, but not ok for this female professional to get embarassed by the pros and turn a profit in doing so? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/97 "2006-09-17T03:30:03Z")
[QUOTE=don’t ask] For comparison I offer the similarly named **Mark Wiebe**. Turned pro in 1980, played 499 tournaments missed 211 cuts, 164th in all time money earnings. In 2006 played 10 tournaments 9 missed cuts, withdrew after worst first round of the year (81) in other event. [/QUOTE] He also won two tournaments, was top ten 47 times and top 25 106 times over his career. He EARNED his tour card by playing golf well enough in comparison to the competition. You have to be within the top 125 to be guaranteed your card, or you have to win an event, which guarantees you a card for 2-5 years, depending on the event. For 26 years, this guy played well enough against the men to earn that card. I think it’s pretty shitty to “compare” him to some teenager who’s given opportunity after opportunity to make a fool of herself, just because he’s 49 and can’t play as well as he used to. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/98 "2006-09-17T03:38:21Z")
[QUOTE=don’t ask] For comparison I offer the similarly named **Mark Wiebe**. Turned pro in 1980, played 499 tournaments missed 211 cuts, 164th in all time money earnings. In 2006 played 10 tournaments 9 missed cuts, withdrew after worst first round of the year (81) in other event. [/QUOTE] If he can’t compete, then I’d say the same thing about him. Duval plays primarily because his endorsement contracts dictate that he play a certain number of events each year. But he’s just embarassing himself out there these days (although he is getting a bit better lately). It pains me to see a former #1 in the world shooting int he 80s, and I’m sure it’s no fun for him either. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/99 "2006-09-17T03:53:40Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] If someone wanted to pay me millions of dollars to lose a golf tournament, I’d take it in a second. [/QUOTE] So would anybody here- it’d be a free lunch. It’s different for actual athletes. They’re supposed to respect their chosen sports. Maybe Wie is too young to have that, on the other hand, there are girls only a little older than her who are winning on the LPGA Tour. She could probably do the same if she focused on it.[I think it’s safe to say that her father only has the money in mind:](http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/brennan/2006-09-06-michelle-wie_x.htm) > [@](#): > > At the PGA Tour’s John Deere Classic in July, Michelle shot a 77 in the first round and quit because of heat exhaustion in the second. But father B.J. Wie also had his mind on something else, according to Golf World. > > “Some of the criticisms of Michelle’s playing on the PGA Tour are very logically thought out,” B.J. Wie said. “However, they do not fully understand the capitalistic market mechanism. Did you see the large galleries following Michelle yesterday despite her first-round score of 77?” If you don’t care much about sports, this is understandably a non-issue. If you do, it is. Sports fans expect that athletes should play out of a love for the game _on some level_. And it IS a shame if her father is preventing her from maximizing her abilities on the course because he’s more interested in making money. She could get rich as a regular pro golfer, and there’s a lot of time for her to turn it around, but this case also has some of the hallmarks of a star being mismanaged by her parents. If you think there’s no mental pressure element to golf, by the way, you need to watch Tiger Woods’ playing partner on a Sunday when Woods is in contention. His picks his game up and his opponents collapse. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/100 "2006-09-17T03:54:14Z")
The point is that the comparisons are all ridiculous. Comparing Wie’s efforts over her PGA “career” with some hypothetical norm is just a joke. Have a look at the careers of plenty of men who struggle for years to hold on to a tour card. As pointed out earlier Wie is simply playing whereever she is invited because she is not an LPGA card holder and can only play 6 of their tournaments a year. Her next choice is to not play. And to correct a common misstatement, she has beaten men in qualifying. She became the only woman ever to win local qualifying for the US Open. She putted poorly in regional qualifying and missed her spot but still finished ahead of 80 or 90 men. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977.md?page=6)