# Michelle Wie: Quit embarrassing yourself! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 16, 2006, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977 "2006-09-16T18:32:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/161 "2006-09-19T02:04:15Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] I can drive the ball 250 easily, 280 on a good day. Then, brother, it all falls apart. Even if I drive the fairway, I struggle mightily on my long and midrange irons. [/QUOTE] As my mother told me and my sister over and over and over. APPLY YOURSELF. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/162 "2006-09-19T03:20:12Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] Yeah, but you still have to know how to get on the green. I can drive the ball 250 easily, 280 on a good day. Then, brother, it all falls apart. Even if I drive the fairway, I struggle mightily on my long and midrange irons. [/QUOTE] You are not a professional apparently. By norfmal terms, local golfers think they hit farther than they do. Pavin hits 260 ave. Ypu would think he is a long hitter if you played with him.He is too short to compete nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/163 "2006-09-19T03:25:54Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] You are not a professional apparently. By norfmal terms, local golfers think they hit farther than they do. Pavin hits 260 ave. Ypu would think he is a long hitter if you played with him.He is too short to compete nowadays. [/QUOTE] I marshall weekends at our local course and have observed that most of the better players here hit drives about 220-230 yards. A few of the best go 260-280 and I had one guy bounce one off my cart at 310 yards. It caromed off and stoped about 10 yards away at right angles. My guess is it would have gone maybe 320-325 without my cart in the way. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/164 "2006-09-19T15:15:11Z")
I play quite a bit of golf and am a relatively long hitter. Driving is the strength of my game. Guys I play with (and regularly outdrive) are often surprised that the length of my normal big drives is only in the 250-260 range. If I REALLY boom one, it might go 270. But to get anything more I need a tailwind, cartpath, downslope, etc. Back to Michelle Wie and her purported “embarrassing herself.” No one has seen fit to follow up on the observation that she has not been playingon the LPGA because she is not allowed to. Having decided to go pro, all that is left for her is the PGA. Let’s look at the final standings in Womens’ majors - 4 of the 5 LPGA events Wie was allowed to play this year. Nabisco 1. Webb 2. Ochoa 3T Gulbis 3T Wie 5. Inkster 6T Sorenstam McDonald’s LPGA 1. Pak 2. Webb 3T Kun 3T Miyazato 5T Kerr 5T Wie 5T Hurst ``` T9 Sorenstam T9 Ochoa T34 Inkster ``` US Women’s 1. Sorenstam 2. Hurst 3T Pak 3T Prammanasudh 3T Wie 6 Inkster ``` T20 Ochoa T28 Kerr T37 Webb ``` Weetabix British 1 Steinhauser 2T Kerr 2T Gustafson 4T Inkster 4T Ochoa ``` T26 Wie T31 Sorenstam Webb - Missed Cut ``` So in the 4 majors, Wie finished: Wie 3T-5T-3T-26T How does that compare with the finishes of Annika - generally acknowledged the best woman golfer these days: Sorenstam 6T-9T-1-31T How about the other women who finished in the top 5 in the majors, who constitute a “Who’s Who” of womens’ golf: Webb 1-2-37T-MC Ochoa 2-9T-20T-4T Inkster 5-34T-6-4T I’d say Wie acquitted herself quite well - especially for a high schooler! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/165 "2006-09-19T15:38:48Z")
[QUOTE=Dinsdale] Back to Michelle Wie and her purported “embarrassing herself.” No one has seen fit to follow up on the observation that she has not been playingon the LPGA because she is not allowed to. Having decided to go pro, all that is left for her is the PGA. [/quote] We followed up on it. You just didn’t read the whole thread. > [@](#): > > I’d say Wie acquitted herself quite well - especially for a high schooler! Everyone here has acknowledged that she does very well on the LPGA. I’m at a loss to understand what your point is. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/166 "2006-09-19T16:00:52Z")
[QUOTE=Dinsdale] I’d say Wie acquitted herself quite well - especially for a high schooler! [/QUOTE] Did you read the OP? It refers to her play on the men’s tour, and suggests that she would be better off in the LPGA, where she does quite well. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/167 "2006-09-19T17:26:56Z")
Yes I did read the OP, which included: > [@](#): > > Maybe after a few years if you’re dominating on the LPGA the way Annika is, then it’ll be time to dip your toe into the PGA again and see how you stack up. Bottom line is she doesn’t have the opportunity to play frequently enough to dominate the LPGA. Moreover, as I tried to show, the record of this year’s majors shows an argument could be made that she HAS dominated that tour. And even your most recent posts suggests **she would be better off in the LPGA, where she does quite well.** So she should only play competitively 5-6 times a year? And if not on the PGA, where? I did read the entire thread, which makes no mention of alternative competitive opportunities for MW until post #31, when the Nationwide Tour is mentioned w/r/t Annika. Not until post #42 was it mentioned that, in fact, MW’s opportunities on the LPGA were somewhat limited. A subsequent poster concurred in #47, and #49 followed up suggesting that MW play the Nationwide and Hooter’s tours. Right. Please identify a whole bunch of guys riding pine in the NBA who want to be stars in the CBA, or seldom used major leaguers who request to move down to the minors where they can start and win. Now if you want to argue that she should not have turned pro so she could still play on her HS team and in amateur events, that is a different argument than anyone has made here (as well as a train that has left the station). And, as an amateur, she would still be eligible to play in PGA events either by qualifying or through sponsor’s exemptions. But after these 3 brief mentions of the fact that MW is playing on the PGA because it is the only competition available to her - and other mentions of the economic benefits she derives from it, in post #71, it is again suggested that MW’s PGA performances **“kept her from winning on the LPGA.”** Similarly, post #99 states that girls only a little older than MW are making $ on the LPGA tour, and that MW could as well if she put her mind to it. Post #100 again reminds folks that MW is limited in her ability to play LPGA events. But in Post #108 we return to ignorance saying MW ought to play on the LPGA until she can compete on the PGA, and post #111 says to let her be successful on LPGA tour before trying PGA. She CAN’T play on the LPGA any more than she is, guys! Post #144 observes that she needs to develop before she can compete in LPGA Where? As suggested above, I really don’t think Nationwide or Hooter’s are realistic options. Post #147 made (IMO) the clearest explanation to that point of the limits on her LPGA participation, and I first weighed in at #150. But in Post #151 - someone again states the desire to see her win on the LPGA before competing on PGA. In Post #164 - I made my “no one followed up on” comment. Perhaps I should have said the discussion in general has failed to sufficiently acknowledge the limitations, and fails to identify alternatives. It was repeated, but it certainly was not developed or given sufficient prominence IMO. And all this talk about driving distances and the like is essentially irrelevant to the reasons MW is currently playing on the PGA tour. IMO, the argument against MW playing on the PGA would be whether MW turned pro too early, or whether the LPGA should lower their age requirement. And there might be many comparisons available not only in terms of male golfers, but female tennis players, or b-ball and football players who did not complete their college “apprenticeship” and never met their expectations as pros. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/168 "2006-09-19T18:38:25Z")
[QUOTE=Dinsdale] Where? As suggested above, I really don’t think Nationwide or Hooter’s are realistic options. [/QUOTE] Why not? Look guys, Tiger has already shown how a golf phenom should proceed. You begin by playing amateur tournaments. You learn to play against progressively harder players and courses. Oh, and you learn to win. Occasionally, you test yourself against the next level of competition. Between tests, you go back to the amateur ranks and you keep improving and winning. You also get a good coach and practice your ass off. You take time to mature and when you think you’re ready, you start kicking the crap out of everybody. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/169 "2006-09-19T19:01:32Z")
[QUOTE=Dinsdale] So she should only play competitively 5-6 times a year? And if not on the PGA, where? I did read the entire thread, which makes no mention of alternative competitive opportunities for MW until post #31, when the Nationwide Tour is mentioned w/r/t Annika. [/QUOTE] From my post #44 (emphasis added): > [@John Mace](#): > > Michelle Wie is no Mike Wier. This is just a strawman, Sam. The question is, what’s best for her golf game and career. In fact, **why doesn’t she try to make it on the Nationwide Tour if she wants to compete against men**? Those guys are damn good on that tour, and she’d struggle to make cuts there, too. She might actually be able to play 4 days instead of 2, but she’d still struggle to make the cut there, too. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/170 "2006-09-19T19:06:42Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] Yeah, but you still have to know how to get on the green. I can drive the ball 250 easily, 280 on a good day. Then, brother, it all falls apart. Even if I drive the fairway, I struggle mightily on my long and midrange irons. [/QUOTE] An acquiantance of mine is on the PGA tour so I go to the PGA event whenever he is in town (BTW PGA professional is one of the worst jobs in sports IMHO, you are always on the road (when you start off and you have to play almost every tournament, you are on the road 11 months a year, you might have one or two “home” games) you pay your own expenses (travel and lodging) and you may or may not make money (depending on whether or not you make the cut) and having a long drive seems to make a real difference in getting close to the pin with your chip shot and getting close to the pin on your chip shot seems to make a pretty big difference in your ability to sink your first put. I seem to get much better scores when I play best ball off the tee. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/171 "2006-09-19T19:14:36Z")
[QUOTE=Dinsdale] Bottom line is she doesn’t have the opportunity to play frequently enough to dominate the LPGA. Moreover, as I tried to show, the record of this year’s majors shows an argument could be made that she HAS dominated that tour. [/QUOTE] Okee Dokee. This has to the land speed record for asserting a premise and its opposite. Which is it? Does she or doesn’t she? Who said anything about dominating, before you? Do you actually read what you post, or do you suffer from some form of logorrhea? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/172 "2006-09-19T20:32:27Z")
She is a draw . People come when she plays. As long as that happens ,she will get invites. I do think she will need a little more success to keep it going though. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/173 "2006-09-19T21:15:21Z")
In 2001, at age 11, MW won the Hawaii State Women’s Stroke Play Championship, and the Jennie K. Wilson Invitational (a prestigious women’s amateur tournament in Hawaii). In 2002 she won the Women’s Division of the Hawaii State Open by 13 strokes. In 2003, at 13, she won women’s Amateur Public Links In 2004, as a member of the U.S. team in the Curtis Cup, she won both her singles matches against Great Britain & Ireland. In 2006, MW won the U.S. Open local qualifier in Hawaii. Now, she may not be as accomplished as all the folks on the SDMB, but I’d argue that she already “knows how to win.” I have seen nothing to show that playing on the PGA has damaged her game. IIRC, Annika widely stated that playing w/ the boys improved her game. Even if it had hurt MW’s game, at her age she has tons of time to repair any flaws, or even totally rebuild her swing should she desire. She is an international superstar. Given the pubicity and earnings potential from playing on the PGA, I see no reason why she should choose to compete in the onscurity of the “minor leagues.” ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/174 "2006-09-19T22:33:20Z")
Get her in Q school. That is a babtism of fire where she could compare herself to men trying to get on tour or retain cards. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/175 "2006-09-19T23:39:20Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] It’s a lot more than just learning how to play under pressure. It’s being able to hold up for 4 days, how to play in the last group on Sunday when conditions are toughest, [/QUOTE] Is this a joke? Holding up for four days? You mean walking three miles and continuing to put balls into holes for four days straight? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/176 "2006-09-19T23:44:01Z")
[QUOTE=Dinsdale] In 2001, at age 11, MW won the Hawaii State Women’s Stroke Play Championship, and the Jennie K. Wilson Invitational (a prestigious women’s amateur tournament in Hawaii). In 2002 she won the Women’s Division of the Hawaii State Open by 13 strokes. In 2003, at 13, she won women’s Amateur Public Links In 2004, as a member of the U.S. team in the Curtis Cup, she won both her singles matches against Great Britain & Ireland. In 2006, MW won the U.S. Open local qualifier in Hawaii. Now, she may not be as accomplished as all the folks on the SDMB, but I’d argue that she already “knows how to win.” [/quote] It’s not clear that she knows how to do that with the pros. > [@](#): > > I have seen nothing to show that playing on the PGA has damaged her game. IIRC, Annika widely stated that playing w/ the boys improved her game. Yes, and you’ll note that she isn’t doing it 10x/year either. If she that would improve her game, she’d do it. She could get as many invites as MW. > [@](#): > > Even if it had hurt MW’s game, at her age she has tons of time to repair any flaws, or even totally rebuild her swing should she desire. She is an international superstar. Given the pubicity and earnings potential from playing on the PGA, I see no reason why she should choose to compete in the onscurity of the “minor leagues.” Like I said above, if she’s going to travel around the world to compete in these matches, she ought to at least get 4 days out of them instead of 2. That alone is reason enough to play in the “minor leagues” as you call them. She just wants to make a shitload of money, and if that’s her goal, fine. If her goal is to be the best golfer she can be, she’s going against the advice of almost everyone I can think of in the professional golf world. Maybe she knows something they don’t, but I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/177 "2006-09-20T00:21:37Z")
[QUOTE=threemae] Is this a joke? Holding up for four days? You mean walking three miles and continuing to put balls into holes for four days straight? [/QUOTE] Well, she pulled out of one tournament because she was exhausted. [http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/columnists/mcgrath/story/5956055p-5242331c.html](http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/columnists/mcgrath/story/5956055p-5242331c.html) It’s a pretty good article. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/178 "2006-09-20T00:49:52Z")
[QUOTE=threemae] Is this a joke? Holding up for four days? You mean walking three miles and continuing to put balls into holes for four days straight? [/QUOTE] It’s about holding up mentally more than physically. I think that’s been discussed, though. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/179 "2006-09-20T01:59:09Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] If her goal is to be the best golfer she can be, she’s going against the advice of almost everyone I can think of in the professional golf world. Maybe she knows something they don’t, but I doubt it. [/QUOTE] If I may aske, who are these experts with whom you have been consulting in the professional golf world? I didn’t re-read all 4 pages, but all I saw in the first 2 were a couple of columnists’ articles, and references to posters’ golfing buddies. I have not heard ANYONE ANYWHERE suggest that she - or any woman - has a realistic chance of competing with the big boys. Michelle may have that as a dream, but she is a kid aiming high. I have heard no one seriously share those dreams (tho many folk are willing to profit from them!) But everyone I have heard firmly believes she will be extremely successful on the LPGA. Where are the “experts” who say that her failing to make PGA cuts will harm her LPGA prospects? I think her best options would have been to remain an amateur until she could compete on the LPGA - maybe straight out of high school. Or to ask for an exception to the minimum age requirement as I believe Morgan Pressel did. I - and everyone I have ever spoken to about this - firmly believes that whatever Michelle does, she will never be able to compete on the men’s tour. So, no, we don’t view her as a joke. Merely as one of many stories in the golf world. And, she’s so damn hot, I for anything that gets her picture taken! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977/180 "2006-09-20T02:30:25Z")
[Tiger Woods’ advice to MW](http://starbulletin.com/2004/01/08/sports/story1.html): > [@](#): > > "I think it’s a good experience to obviously move up and play against people who are better than you. You do learn that way. But I also look at the philosophy, too. You need to play and win, too, learn the art of winning. My dad was a big believer in that. I didn’t go nationally until I was playing well enough to win consistently at the junior level in my own Orange County. > > “Then when I went nationally, I didn’t play amateur golf until I was able to win consistently. So I learned the art of winning. I think that’s what she needs to try to do, because she’s won one tournament, women’s Publinx, but I think there’s a certain art to winning. If you can instill that early on, I think you’re going to have more of a successful career.” Sorenstam: > [@](#): > > “I think what she’s doing is great for golf,” Sorenstam said. “But she needs some time to gain experience. There’s no substitution for that on a golf course.” Exactly. What she’s doing is great for golf, but not great for her. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michelle-wie-quit-embarrassing-yourself/372977.md?page=10)