# Michigan AG announces charges against fake electors **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 19, 2023, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-ag-announces-charges-against-fake-electors/987256 "2023-07-19T14:49:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-ag-announces-charges-against-fake-electors/987256/41 "2023-07-19T21:36:39Z")
Either incredibly, incredibly stupid, or understood that they where going to throw a bucket of mud in the bath water to slow down the confirmation process so that it would go to the House where Trump would have probably been confirmed. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-ag-announces-charges-against-fake-electors/987256/42 "2023-07-19T21:36:41Z")
Isn’t the whole point of signing something that you’re responsible for what you signed? I mean, I couldn’t get out of a contract I didn’t like by saying that I never read it, I just signed what someone told me to. Could I? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-ag-announces-charges-against-fake-electors/987256/43 "2023-07-19T21:42:09Z")
There’s an entire area of contract law devoted to that very issue: > **[Non est factum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_est_factum)** > > Non est factum (Latin for "it is not \[my\] deed") is a defence in contract law that allows a signing party to escape performance of an agreement "which is fundamentally different from what he or she intended to execute or sign". A claim of non est factum means that the signature on the contract was signed by mistake, without knowledge of its meaning. A successful plea would make the contract void ab initio. > According to Saunders v Anglia Building Society AC 1004, applied in Petelin v Cullen , th... ---
**Author:** ![xizor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xizor/32/102_2.png) [@xizor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xizor)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-ag-announces-charges-against-fake-electors/987256/44 "2023-07-19T21:55:44Z")
I am wondering if the Michigan GOP will be paying all the legal bills, and will this break them since they were already in deep financial doo-doo [https://www.reuters.com/world/us/swing-state-republicans-bleed-donors-cash-over-trumps-false-election-claims-2023-07-05/](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/swing-state-republicans-bleed-donors-cash-over-trumps-false-election-claims-2023-07-05/) > The Michigan party’s federal account had about $116,000 on March 31, a drop from nearly $867,000 two years ago ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-ag-announces-charges-against-fake-electors/987256/45 "2023-07-19T22:20:40Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > There’s an entire area of contract law devoted to that very issue: I can certainly see there being a legal defense if someone fraudulently staples the last page of a contract to a different first page, or if the contract contained complicated language that the signer didn’t understand, or the like. But does it apply to “I just didn’t bother reading it”? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-ag-announces-charges-against-fake-electors/987256/46 "2023-07-19T22:26:50Z")
This is an area of law that will depend heavily on the courts of each jurisdiction, so it’s not possible to make general statements. The Wikipedia article is primarily focused on UK law, but that may not apply in the US or other Commonwealth countries. In one of the well-known cases on this issue in Canada, decided by the Supreme Court in the 1950s, an elderly farmer signed away oil rights and later challenged the contract. He said he was called away from his card game and didn’t have his glasses on, so didn’t understand what he was signing at the request of the oil company agent. The SCC held non-est-factum and voided the contract. I don’t know if it’s still good law; my prof in contracts law thought it was an extreme case. Whether that kind of defence would apply in the Michigan case? Dunno. It will depend on Michigan criminal law. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-ag-announces-charges-against-fake-electors/987256/47 "2023-07-19T22:27:28Z")
I didn’t go so far as to look at the Michigan Codes, but here’s **[one Michigan lawyer’s](https://www.hamblinlaw.com/how-to-properly-sign-a-contract-so-it-will-be-enforceable.html)** take: > [@](#): > > **Make Sure the Contract You’re Signing Is the Contract You Agreed to Sign** > > If the contract has gone through a number of rounds of negotiations or revisions, don’t just assume that the copy put in front of you to sign is what you think it is. Before you sign it, be absolutely sure that you fully know and understand the terms of the document. **Under Michigan law, you are generally bound by a contract that you sign even if you have no knowledge of its contents.** Unless you can prove that the other party engaged in fraud or other wrongdoing in preparing the contract or inducing you to sign it, you will be required to abide by it. [Bolding mine] ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-ag-announces-charges-against-fake-electors/987256/48 "2023-07-19T23:21:21Z")
Here is one of the future inmates: > **[Michele Lundgren Charged as a Michigan Fake Trump Elector - File 770](https://file770.com/michele-lundgren-charged-as-a-michigan-fake-trump-elector/)** > > Michele Lundgren, wife of sff artist Carl Lundgren, is one of 16 Michigan residents charged with multiple felonies for their role in the alleged false electors scheme following the 2020 U.S. presidential election. Michigan Attorney General Dana... ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-ag-announces-charges-against-fake-electors/987256/49 "2023-07-19T23:23:45Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > [Michele Lundgren Charged as a Michigan Fake Trump Elector - File 770](https://file770.com/michele-lundgren-charged-as-a-michigan-fake-trump-elector/) And it’s already up on the Wikipedia article about her husband: > **[Carl Lundgren (illustrator)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Lundgren_(illustrator))** > > Carl Lundgren (born July 12, 1947) is an American artist and illustrator, primarily known for his 1960s-era rock posters and fantasy art. > Born on July 12, 1947, in Detroit, Michigan, Lundgren had an early interest in becoming a fantasy artist and illustrator like Frank Frazetta, his idol. At the age of 18, he was co-chairman of the first multimedia science fiction convention, The Detroit Triple Fan Fair, featuring comics, movies and science fiction. He studied with the Famous Artists School cor... ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-ag-announces-charges-against-fake-electors/987256/50 "2023-07-19T23:33:11Z")
That article is the first I’ve seen that actually lists the charges: > Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel announced yesterday Lundgren and each of the other defendants have been charged with: - One count of Conspiracy to Commit Forgery, a 14-year felony, - Two counts of Forgery, a 14-year felony, - One count of Conspiracy to Commit Uttering and Publishing, a 14-year felony, - One count of Uttering and Publishing, a 14-year felony, - One count of Conspiracy to Commit Election Law Forgery, a 5-year felony, and, - Two counts of Election Law Forgery, a 5-year felony. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-ag-announces-charges-against-fake-electors/987256/51 "2023-07-19T23:59:50Z")
Hear! Hear! And I’m laughing like a loon at their self-inflicted troubles. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2023, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-ag-announces-charges-against-fake-electors/987256/52 "2023-07-20T00:00:21Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Either incredibly, incredibly stupid, or understood that they where going to throw a bucket of mud in the bath water to slow down the confirmation process so that it would go to the House where Trump would have probably been confirmed. I think pretty much everyone at every level involved with the “Stop the Steal” movement and the subsequent insurrection attempt expected Trump to pardon them in his last days. Thinking about that always makes me laugh. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2023, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-ag-announces-charges-against-fake-electors/987256/53 "2023-07-20T00:27:22Z")
Needs to be a Whiter Shade of Pale number, something about “16 fake electors, who were headed for the door…” ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2023, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-ag-announces-charges-against-fake-electors/987256/54 "2023-07-20T10:29:29Z")
Also charged - Kent Vanderwood mayor of Wyoming Mi and [VP of Christian fundraising organization Timothy Group](https://www.timothygroup.com/about-us/meet-the-team/kent-vanderwood/) Ambiguous statement from city of Wyoming regarding their mayor [Kent Vanderwood](https://www.wyomingmi.gov/About-Wyoming/News) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2023, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-ag-announces-charges-against-fake-electors/987256/55 "2023-07-20T11:37:44Z")
> [@chela](#): > > Ambiguous statement from city of Wyoming regarding their mayor [Kent Vanderwood](https://www.wyomingmi.gov/About-Wyoming/News) Basically, it says that a mayor cannot be recalled before he has served one year in office (if the term is longer than two years). Also, that the acts for which he can be recalled must have taken place while he was in office. I’ve managed to dig up the fact that he became mayor last August, although he has been serving as a councilman for 16 years. In short, the normal recall procedures do not make mayor Vanderwood eligible for recall. He can be removed by the governor if he gets convicted. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2023, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-ag-announces-charges-against-fake-electors/987256/56 "2023-07-20T12:17:41Z")
I was wondering when he got elected. It is the sort of statement I’d expect from any city attorney. But for how long can they neatly sidestep the issue-charges of election fraud against a mayor. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2023, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-ag-announces-charges-against-fake-electors/987256/57 "2023-07-20T12:46:12Z")
If (as appears to be the case) the city’s laws don’t let the city do anything about it, then they’re not sidestepping anything. They can hope that he resigns, or that the governor removes him, and they can vote him out whenever the next election would be, but otherwise, it’s out of their hands. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2023, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-ag-announces-charges-against-fake-electors/987256/58 "2023-07-20T13:02:07Z")
Aside/ Wyoming, Michigan? And I thought our county had addressing/mail problems /A Better include that ZIP code. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2023, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-ag-announces-charges-against-fake-electors/987256/59 "2023-07-20T14:35:16Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > I have to say that I am stunned that ANYONE thought this idea of fake electors would actually work. I know that Trump supporters are stupid, but _come on!_ Are you familiar with the [Brooks Brothers Riot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Brothers_riot), (courtesy of the perennial rat-f\*cker batman villian Roger Stone) in Florida that was instrumental in getting W Bush into office? Point being that this kind of mendacious crap has **actually worked** in the past, so why the hell not try again? ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2023, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-ag-announces-charges-against-fake-electors/987256/60 "2023-07-20T15:12:07Z")
out of 7 states involved in this scheme, pennsylvania and new mexico used the hedging language. i remember josh shapiro looked into this with alacrity and the hedging saved the “alternate electors”. he was ready to go. some of the states involved in this have republicans at the top and it is doubtful that state charges will happen. jack smith would have to decide to go with federal charges. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-ag-announces-charges-against-fake-electors/987256.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-ag-announces-charges-against-fake-electors/987256.md?page=4)