# Michigan Contemplates Becoming Right-To-Work **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673 "2012-12-11T02:56:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/181 "2012-12-12T23:41:42Z")
OK. Now that the law has passed, it becomes one of the 24 right-to-work states in the US. Now we get to see what happens when the law changes, since apparently we didn’t gather any evidence from the other 23. I surmise that the sky didn’t fall, but I’ll be watching Michigan for signs of the impending doom they are most assuredly facing. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/182 "2012-12-13T00:54:52Z")
Folks, Tennessee is right to work, and this state is poorer than shit. Period. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/183 "2012-12-13T01:01:37Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Taft-Hartley outlawed closed shops, but not union shops. The Act, section 14(b) made union shops a state matter. A closed shop is under a union security agreement to only hire union members. A union shop is under a union security agreement that employees must belong to the union, and new hires must join within a specified time period. FWIW: even though closed shops are illegal, it is legal to charge non-members the union dues because they get the benefits the union has fought for. LAUSD is run like this. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/184 "2012-12-13T01:03:18Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > … I surmise that the sky didn’t fall, but I’ll be watching Michigan for signs of the impending doom they are most assuredly facing. Well, may we more modestly argue that this is not a good thing, if we leave off the stuff about dire stress and ruin? And if its studies and numbers you hanker for, here: > **[Unions, inequality, and faltering middle-class wages](https://www.epi.org/publication/ib342-unions-inequality-faltering-middle-class/)** > > A detailed analysis of the impact of unionization on wages and benefits and on wage inequality. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/185 "2012-12-13T01:08:08Z")
I’m curious what percentage of Michiganians support this. Has anyone seen a poll? > [@Bricker](#): > > Unions are welcome to convince people they add some value, but they won’t be able to force people to join. Outstanding. If a law were passed making payments to barbers _optional_, freeloaders might enjoy free haircuts for a short while, but the barbershops would soon go out of business. Is this hard to understand? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/186 "2012-12-13T02:49:20Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Folks, Tennessee is right to work, and this state is poorer than shit. > Period. Texas is also a RTW state, and while I realize that around here Texas is unpopular, surely you don’t think that they are ‘poorer than shit’ as well…do you? Here is a [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law) about RTW states, and this is the list of states that have it: > [@](#): > > The following states are right-to-work states: > > ``` > Alabama > Arizona † > Arkansas † > Florida † > Georgia > Idaho > Indiana[30] > Iowa > Kansas † > Louisiana > Michigan[31] > Mississippi † > Nebraska †† > Nevada > North Carolina > North Dakota > Oklahoma † > South Carolina > South Dakota > Tennessee > Texas > Utah > Virginia > Wyoming > > ``` Some of these states are certainly poor…but by no means are all of them. Some are actually quite wealthy, and unemployment in them is actually better than in the remaining states combined. Of course, there are all sorts of reasons that’s the case…but then, there are all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with RTW for why some states are poor and others aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/187 "2012-12-13T03:48:08Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I’m curious what percentage of Michiganians support this. Has anyone seen a poll? > > If a law were passed making payments to barbers _optional_, freeloaders might enjoy free haircuts for a short while, but the barbershops would soon go out of business. Is this hard to understand? And yet we have plenty of right to work states already. Which businesses are going out of business in them? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/188 "2012-12-13T04:46:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And yet we have plenty of right to work states already. Which businesses are going out of business in them? I think you don’t understand what he’s saying. He’s talking about unions, not businesses. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/189 "2012-12-13T05:01:03Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Yes…I know you did. Here is what you bolded: > > Now, I ask again…where does it say ‘you cannot choose to hire only union workers’?? It says no person shall be REQUIRED by an employer to become or remain a member of a union. No where in what you bolded (or anywhere else as far as I can see) does it say that you, as an employer, can’t choose to hire only union’. It’s the difference between requirement and choice. What do you mean it’s the difference between a requirement and a choice? We’re talking about whether an employer can choose to require something. 😕 If you “choose to hire only union” members, that means you require union membership as a condition of hiring. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/190 "2012-12-13T05:02:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And yet we have plenty of right to work states already. Which businesses are going out of business in them? I would guess that all the businesses that were forced by law to give away their goods and/or services for free are now, or will soon be, out of business. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/191 "2012-12-13T05:33:47Z")
The spectacle of Republicans weeping over the plight of the working man does for hypocrisy what outer space does for big. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/192 "2012-12-13T06:22:45Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > If a law were passed making payments to barbers _optional_, freeloaders might enjoy free haircuts for a short while, but the barbershops would soon go out of business. Is this hard to understand? Evidently: > [@Bricker](#): > > And yet we have plenty of right to work states already. Which businesses are going out of business in them? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/193 "2012-12-13T07:07:27Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I would guess that all the businesses that were forced by law to give away their goods and/or services for free are now, or will soon be, out of business. What businesses are being forced by law to give away their goods and/or services for free? Not meant to be snark. A serious question. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/194 "2012-12-13T07:10:16Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What businesses are being forced by law to give away their goods and/or services for free? > > Not meant to be snark. A serious question. Unions. Unions are being forced to give away their advocacy for free. If you get a job at a union shop, your pay is higher because the union fights for you. You have the medical they fight for. So if you don’t have to pay union dues, then you get the benefit of the union, past and future for free. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/195 "2012-12-13T07:15:08Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Unions. > > Unions are being forced to give away their advocacy for free. If you get a job at a union shop, your pay is higher because the union fights for you. You have the medical they fight for. > > So if you don’t have to pay union dues, then you get the benefit of the union, past and future for free. Since when were unions considered businesses? Are the ACLU, the NAACP, and the NRA also considered businesses? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/196 "2012-12-13T07:17:10Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Since when were unions considered businesses? > > Are the ACLU, the NAACP, and the NRA also considered businesses? It’s a metaphor. A business that is forced by law to provide a service for free will go out of business. A union that is forced by law to provide services for free is more likely to go out of business. The people pushing these laws know that, they’re just not honest enough to say it. ---
**Author:** ![Toxgoddess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Toxgoddess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxgoddess)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/197 "2012-12-13T11:42:16Z")
A little more context for this decision. Fhis is the Legilslature that decided to you ut state employee pay by 3%. So what?They didn’t have the authority to do so unilaterally unddr the Michigan Consgitutiin. When the Civil ervice Commiszion NKT the unions) sued, several levels of state court told the lawmamerz they did not have the Constitutiinal authority to do tbis and to refund the money. They ignored them for over a year. This is the zame Ldgislature that allows the governkr to appkint an Emergency Fizcal Manager to take over a city’s administration if the gov decidesez the city’s finances ade in bad shape. In the two days sjnce tbey passed the Right To 2Work bill, tbey have added more abortion restrictions and another Emergency Fiscal Mgt law after voters tossed the last one. And added the provision that these acts are not subject to referendum. Larty of small gov? Bullshit. It’s about more control over people’s lives and removing tbeir ability to object. There is no concern for the law or the procezs. It’s a naked power grab. ---
**Author:** ![Toxgoddess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Toxgoddess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxgoddess)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/198 "2012-12-13T11:45:17Z")
Sorry for the typoz. Old phone, hard to edit. Hope you got the gist. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/199 "2012-12-13T12:10:24Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > It’s a metaphor. > > A business that is forced by law to provide a service for free will go out of business. > > A union that is forced by law to provide services for free is more likely to go out of business. > > The people pushing these laws know that, they’re just not honest enough to say it. Except they aren’t forced to provide a service. I was in a mostly unionized job in Texas of all places for two years. I had different pay, benefits, and terms of employment than the union members. I would have even joined had I decided to stick around, despite their shady recruiting tactics. Sure, they would have been better able to “stay in business” had they been able to force their way into the private agreement I had with my employer, but fortunately barbers can’t ninja haircut me in the street and then have my pay docked. Windshield washing panhandlers with legal power to extort. It’s amazing how a limited budget can lead to better business practices. I wonder if unions in RTW states are able to do more with less. The above union I considered joining still suffered from some bloat due to being tied to one if the large national unions, but it still ran lean and mean compared to others. Not sure exactly how one would best measure this. It’s going to be a loooong year for 'pubbies in Michigan. Any idea if the governor had any national level aspirations? Probably killed his chances with this one. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/200 "2012-12-13T12:15:42Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Except they aren’t forced to provide a service. Yes, they are. Unions must, by law, represent, and advocate for, all workers in jobs which are covered by a CBA even if the workers are not union members. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673.md?page=11)