# Michigan Contemplates Becoming Right-To-Work **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673 "2012-12-11T02:56:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/221 "2012-12-14T01:14:39Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Heavens! And yet so many Americans are unaware of the dreadful threat posed by the union thugs relentless grasp for power! The eight hour day, child labor laws, Social Security, the list of horrors goes on and on! > > Let us take a moment for gratitude to the Republican Party, which stands as a bulwark against such socialist plots and schemes! One Mississippi, two Mississippi…OK, that’s more than enough. Well, if we are going to bring up ancient history (even you aren’t old enough to remember when we adopted the 8 hour work day 'luci :p), let’s keep in mind how the Republicans handled that whole slavery thingy, right? As I asked earlier, what have unions done for us lately? I mean, yeah, it’s great that they helped bring about all those things, but, well, most of them were so far in the past that I doubt there are more than a handful of posters on this board who were even kids when the latest on your list was enacted. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/222 "2012-12-14T01:35:36Z")
> **[Matthew Davis: Michigan right-to-work protesters who destroyed hot dog...](https://www.mlive.com/news/2012/12/matthew_davis_michigan_right-t.html)** > > Clint Tarver looks to salvage his catering equipment after it was damaged during Tuesday's right-to-work protest. Seems too cartoonish to be true. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/223 "2012-12-14T01:39:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > [Matthew Davis: Michigan right-to-work protesters who destroyed hot dog vendor's equipment should face charges - mlive.com](http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/12/matthew_davis_michigan_right-t.html) > > Seems too cartoonish to be true. Yeah…it does. I’d check the source and then look to see if that story is on any sort of mainstream site before posting it though. I mean, this sounds awfully suspicious to me ‘There was plenty of ugliness on the faces of the socialist goons who showed up at the state Capitol Tuesday to demonstrate against a new state law that will prohibit unions from requiring membership as a condition of employment’. ‘Socialist goons’? :dubious: ETA: A quick google search turns up this story only on conservative news sites, so it seems pretty suspicious to me. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/224 "2012-12-14T02:41:43Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Well, if we are going to bring up ancient history (even you aren’t old enough to remember when we adopted the 8 hour work day 'luci :p), let’s keep in mind how the Republicans handled that whole slavery thingy, right? > > As I asked earlier, what have unions done for us lately? I mean, yeah, it’s great that they helped bring about all those things, but, well, most of them were so far in the past that I doubt there are more than a handful of posters on this board who were even kids when the latest on your list was enacted. True enough, those are the Golden Hits. And what have they done for us, lately? Kinda depends on who you mean by “us”. The union power was born of brutal necessity, in a struggle against selfish and heartless men. It was hard, it was bloody, and it was long. Now, if you want to offer the case that we have evolved, our businessmen are far more humane and conscientious than the capitalists of the Dark Days, all well and good. I would largely agree, our society has evolved and progressed. Need I mention whom I credit with leading that change, that progress? No, I didn’t think so… But are we angels, now? Do you never hear any stories about American workers being exploited and bullied by their employers? Coal miners, for instance, who work for a company that deliberately puts their lives at risk. Liberal media didn’t make that up, it happens. Of course everyone prefers calm and reasoned compromise between all parties. And, for the most part, that is what we have, Debs be praised! But if that fails, and only one party has any effective power, then the employee is, as Kropotkin put it, “boned”. Negotiation is possible only with effective power behind it. Without any significant power behind you, you are no longer negotiating, you are begging. What, unions are partisan? So? Chamber of Commerce is partisan as all git out, anybody fashioning legislation to curb _their_ power? How about the American Medical Association, do doctors pay dues? People organizing to obtain and use poltical and economic power is as American as pecan pie. Apple pie is American, sure, but not as much. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/225 "2012-12-14T03:13:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > What, unions are partisan? So? Chamber of Commerce is partisan as all git out, anybody fashioning legislation to curb _their_ power? How about the American Medical Association, do doctors pay dues? People organizing to obtain and use poltical and economic power is as American as pecan pie. Apple pie is American, sure, but not as much. Chamber of Commerce does not enjoy special legal protections, nor are you required to join if you wish to open a company. AMA charges dues, but Doctors are not required to join. Doctors also are not allowed to unionize (that is seen as price collusion / fixing if too many Doctors band together). ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/226 "2012-12-14T03:29:48Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > True enough, those are the Golden Hits. And what have they done for us, lately? Kinda depends on who you mean by “us”. > > The union power was born of brutal necessity, in a struggle against selfish and heartless men. It was hard, it was bloody, and it was long. Now, if you want to offer the case that we have evolved, our businessmen are far more humane and conscientious than the capitalists of the Dark Days, all well and good. I would largely agree, our society has evolved and progressed. Need I mention whom I credit with leading that change, that progress? No, I didn’t think so… So, you can’t think of anything they have done for us lately either? However you define ‘us’. To me, it’s the equivalent of abolitionists. Yeah, they had a hell of an impact. We should definitely respect the movement, venerate their achievements and give them kudos. But, you know, we don’t really need them anymore. Sure sure…slavery COULD make a big comeback, but probably not. As you say, society has evolved and progressed. Today, unions serve no purpose in the US. This doesn’t take away from the legacy we all owe to organized labor in this country, but they are a relic of a time that’s come and gone. We HAVE all of those benefits that organized labor bought for us with their sweat and blood…those genies are never, ever going back in the bottle. I figure that they had a good last 20 or so years when they got a free ride without being necessary…time to let them fade away. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/227 "2012-12-14T03:33:36Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Sure, but you can make that arguement about any monopoly. If the old AT&T had been truely awful at providing telephone service, a plucky upstart could have knocked them off their perch. In practical terms, however, when the union, or AT&T, is permitted to act in restraint of trade and abuse their monopoly position, the level of awfulness required is much higher than it would be with free competition, to the point where monopoly can persist indefinitely. > > Note that both UAW and AT&T needed government intervention to achieve their monopoly. I also note that AT&T had quite a bit more market penetration than the UAW has. I honestly cannot take seriously any argument that a market sector where 15%ish of workers are union is under monopoly control–the option of “no union at all” is currently winning by a country mile even after recent efforts to diminish unions. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/228 "2012-12-14T03:57:26Z")
> [@XT](#): > > So, you can’t think of anything they have done for us lately either? However you define ‘us’. To me, it’s the equivalent of abolitionists. Yeah, they had a hell of an impact. We should definitely respect the movement, venerate their achievements and give them kudos. But, you know, we don’t really need them anymore. Sure sure…slavery COULD make a big comeback, but probably not. As you say, society has evolved and progressed. > > Today, unions serve no purpose in the US. This doesn’t take away from the legacy we all owe to organized labor in this country, but they are a relic of a time that’s come and gone. We HAVE all of those benefits that organized labor bought for us with their sweat and blood…those genies are never, ever going back in the bottle. I figure that they had a good last 20 or so years when they got a free ride without being necessary…time to let them fade away. Without my union, I would have no health insurance, as I would not have the weight of the organization to help me leverage costs down to a reasonable level. Without my union, I would have no pension plan. Without my union, I would not have a training trust to help me acquire new skills & knowledge. Without my union, I would not have access to a credit union. Without my union, I would have to negotiate employment terms with every hotel, casino, convention space, theater, TV or film producer, etc. in town that wanted to hire me, including (but not limited to) breaks, pay scale, work hours, working conditions and scope of work. Unions do indeed still serve a purpose. ETA: Without my union, I would be nearly powerless in most disputes with any employer. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/229 "2012-12-14T04:17:53Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Without my union, I would have no health insurance, as I would not have the weight of the organization to help me leverage costs down to a reasonable level. > Without my union, I would have no pension plan. > Without my union, I would not have a training trust to help me acquire new skills & knowledge. > Without my union, I would not have access to a credit union. > Without my union, I would have to negotiate employment terms with every hotel, casino, convention space, theater, TV or film producer, etc. in town that wanted to hire me, including (but not limited to) breaks, pay scale, work hours, working conditions and scope of work. > > Unions do indeed still serve a purpose. > > ETA: Without my union, I would be nearly powerless in most disputes with any employer. And yet most Americans aren’t in unions and have those things. I’m not and I have all of those things that are applicable, plus a few you don’t. Have you considered that you’ve been drinking the kool aide on some of the stuff you think the union is getting for you? Unless you are so without skill that the union is simply protecting your job and salary in which case you are right. But I’m guessing that’s not the case for you, and that your skills would secure you what you need…just like the majority of your fellow, nonunion neighbors could tell you. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/230 "2012-12-14T04:18:21Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > ETA: Without my union, I would be nearly powerless in most disputes with any employer. You sound like a contract actor or model. You do know that contract workers often have pretty good bargaining power in many industries? And, on that point, that non-union organization can (and in fact, often do) all of the above? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/231 "2012-12-14T05:08:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Let us take a moment for gratitude to the Republican Party, which stands as a bulwark against such socialist plots and schemes! One Mississippi, two Mississippi…OK, that’s more than enough. That’s three partisan shots and counting…can’t we discuss the substance of labor laws and unions instead? > [@elucidator](#): > > The union power was born of brutal necessity, in a struggle against selfish and heartless men. It was hard, it was bloody, and it was long. These two posts seem to reflect a romantic view of unions on your part. The struggle you describe was between two groups trying to gain the advantage in the marketplace. Both used whatever tools were at their disposal. Thankfully, for the most part this meant political lobbying and getting out the vote. But violence certainly did occur, but please don’t kid yourself by thinking it was only on the side of the employers. Here are three examples. [The 1936-37 Flint Sitdown Strike](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_Sit-Down_Strike) > [@Linked article](#): > > In a conventional strike the union takes its members outside the plant and attempts to prevent the employer from operating by discouraging other employees from entering. In a sit-down strike, the workers physically occupy the plant, keeping management and others out…state court judge issued an injunction ordering the strikers to leave the plant…The police attempted to enter the plant on January 11, 1937. The strikers inside the plant turned the fire hoses on the police while pelting them with car parts and other miscellany as members of the women’s auxiliary broke windows in the plant to give strikers some relief from the tear gas the police were using against them. The police made several charges, but withdrew after six hours. [The Herrin Massacre](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herrin_massacre) > [@Linked article](#): > > The Herrin Massacre took place in June 1922 in Herrin, Illinois. Following an early morning gunfire attack on non-union miners going to work on June 21, three union miners (Jordie Henderson, Joseph Pitkewicius and one other) were killed in a confrontation after the striking union members marched on the mine. The next day, union miners killed 19 of fifty strikebreakers and union guards, many of them in brutal ways. A twentieth victim from the non-union group would later be murdered, bringing the death total to twenty-three. [Murder of Eddie York](http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1876&dat=19930724&id=CtQpAAAAIBAJ&sjid=H88EAAAAIBAJ&pg=2380,2596690) > [@Linked article (a union worker was later convicted of the murder)](#): > > The fatal shooting of a non-union worker as he drove past a coal miners’ picket line marked the first bloodshed of a 10-week-old strike in an industry known for its violent labor struggles. > [@elucidator](#): > > Now, if you want to offer the case that we have evolved, our businessmen are far more humane and conscientious than the capitalists of the Dark Days, all well and good. I would largely agree, our society has evolved and progressed. Need I mention whom I credit with leading that change, that progress? No, I didn’t think so… I don’t think anyone is saying the unions should not exist. No one is asking to disband unions and instead rely on goodwill. I would argue, however, that under current federal labor law, free and equal negotiation between union and employer is impossible, owing to undue power granted to one side over the other by Congress and the courts over the years. > [@Zeriel](#): > > I also note that AT&T had quite a bit more market penetration than the UAW has. I honestly cannot take seriously any argument that a market sector where 15%ish of workers are union is under monopoly control–the option of “no union at all” is currently winning by a country mile even after recent efforts to diminish unions. 15%ish of _all workers nationwide_ are union. The figure for certain industries (older manufacturing and government jobs, mainly) is much higher. The individual “market sectors” (industries) are exactly what we’re talking about. > [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > Without my union, I would have no health insurance, as I would not have the weight of the organization to help me leverage costs down to a reasonable level. > Without my union, I would have no pension plan. > Without my union, I would not have a training trust to help me acquire new skills & knowledge. > Without my union, I would not have access to a credit union. I am not in a union, but I enjoy all these things (your fifth isn’t applicable). This isn’t an either/or situation. > [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > Unions do indeed still serve a purpose. Yes, they do. But reform is badly needed. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Made_French_Toast_For_You)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/232 "2012-12-14T05:16:13Z")
[QUOTE=XT] So, you can’t think of anything they have done for us lately either? However you define ‘us’. To me, it’s the equivalent of abolitionists. Yeah, they had a hell of an impact. We should definitely respect the movement, venerate their achievements and give them kudos. But, you know, we don’t really need them anymore. Sure sure…slavery COULD make a big comeback, but probably not. As you say, society has evolved and progressed. [/QUOTE] > [@XT](#): > > And yet most Americans aren’t in unions and have those things. I’m not and I have all of those things that are applicable, plus a few you don’t. Have you considered that you’ve been drinking the kool aide on some of the stuff you think the union is getting for you? Unless you are so without skill that the union is simply protecting your job and salary in which case you are right. But I’m guessing that’s not the case for you, and that your skills would secure you what you need…just like the majority of your fellow, nonunion neighbors could tell you. These comments make it seem like you believe worker exploitation doesn’t happen anymore in the United States. It does. You pointed out that most Americans aren’t exploited and so may not need unions at all. That’s fantastic, but not true of everyone. Unions still serve a vital purpose for many American workers, as you can plainly see when thousands of protesters marched on Michigan’s capital building in order to protect them. Unless you think they’re not being sincere, or are misinformed, or are not important? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/233 "2012-12-14T05:23:07Z")
Obviously union jobs will provide upward pressure on other jobs in the same area. A non union shop has to compete with the union shop for workers. So that’s one thing they do. The people who bring up, “Unions were great once, but we don’t need them any more.” are acting like anti-vaxxers. _Yeah, why should you vaccinate your kid against measles? You’ve never even heard of anyone with measles._ That’s the fucking point! Unions made it possible to have the worker rights we have today. Don’t think in their absence that employers won’t walk back increases. Stagnant wages and shrinking benefits already show this. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/234 "2012-12-14T06:04:12Z")
[So apparently the Michigan law violates the state constitution, and was an unmodified ALEC boilerplate bill that nobody read.](http://www.politicususa.com/oops-michigan-republicans-passed-work-law-unimplementable.html) (biased source, but they give cites) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/235 "2012-12-14T08:13:51Z")
> [@XT](#): > > And yet most Americans aren’t in unions and have those things. I’m not and I have all of those things that are applicable, plus a few you don’t. Have you considered that you’ve been drinking the kool aide on some of the stuff you think the union is getting for you? Unless you are so without skill that the union is simply protecting your job and salary in which case you are right. But I’m guessing that’s not the case for you, and that your skills would secure you what you need…just like the majority of your fellow, nonunion neighbors could tell you. Have you considered that my line of work is not at all comprised of traditional hours or skills? That I don’t have “a job”, as such? Not everyone has a “traditional” 9-5 job with weekends off. Without my union, I’m one guy bouncing from gig to gig to gig, with no continuity other than my own presence. I have never lacked for work, but no matter how hard I worked, I would never have been able to get my own credit union chartered. I would never have been able to get the same rate for health insurance negotiating just for myself. I would never be able to afford a training facility just for me. Etc., etc. With my union, I am bound up with people with similar skill sets working in the same fields on similar endeavors. I am bound up with people who also need health insurance, continuing education, and a place to bank that understands our careers and the way we live our lives. I chose to become a union member because my local showed me that they could help me make a better living and have a better life than I could have fending for myself all the time. The argument you make for not having union membership (that most people have the things that my union has helped me to secure) could easily be applied to other groupings and quickly shows itself to be preposterous, IMO. Why get married, for instance? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/236 "2012-12-14T08:31:15Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Yes, they do. But reform is badly needed. The thing is, Michigan’s new law isn’t at all about reform. It’s about crushing unions, just like Wisconsin’s law restricting unions. I still think that the Michigan law flies in the face of _Beck_. Part of the reason, I think, that **'luci** seems to you to be taking lots of partisan shots is that although you think you are putting forth a neutral tone and argument, you are coming across as fairly partisan yourself. Thus far, you seem to have spent a lot of time decrying that the unions have the deck stacked, while the poor employers are unfairly bound by the law of the land. For instance, please don’t stoop to trying to equate any of the violence that union members have committed with the state-sponsored murders and terrorism that employers have purchased and backed. We’ve done that in previous union threads, and if you want to start in on that, I guarantee I can show many more deaths and ruined lives caused by employers than you can show caused by union members or organizing. You do seem to be well-informed about labor law and it’s history, and I think that’s terrific: it contributes a lot to the discussion and debate. But so far you seem to come down heavily in favor of employers and you seem to have a disdain for unions. So, having said that, I’m curious to hear: how would you go about reforming things in labor law? What would be the goals of your reforms and how would you go about trying to implement them? Do you agree that the laws we have now, including the Taft-Hartley Act, were and have been an attempt to rectify an imbalance of power that was harmful to our society as a whole? Or do you have some other view? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/237 "2012-12-14T10:01:41Z")
I decided the question about reform would just end up being a hijack of this thread so I started [this new thread about the reform of US labor law](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15795625#post15795625) for anyone who wants to contribute their US$.02 about what they consider to be the problems with current laws and their thoughts on solutions to same. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/238 "2012-12-14T11:48:32Z")
\*\* Snowboarder Bo\*\* points out several examples of how workers can benefit from being in a union in a RTW state, while still allowing workers with sufficient skill to go it alone to compete. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/239 "2012-12-14T12:57:36Z")
> [@I Made French Toast For You](#): > > These comments make it seem like you believe worker exploitation doesn’t happen anymore in the United States. It does. I’d wager that **XT** (and I) would disagree with your definition of “worker exploitation.” Would you care to give it? > [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > The argument you make for not having union membership (that most people have the things that my union has helped me to secure) could easily be applied to other groupings and quickly shows itself to be preposterous, IMO. There are advantages to _not_ being in a union as well. You can make your own deal, for one, bargaining as an individual instead of en mass. Unions tend to value seniority over than merit, so an above-average employee might be better off on his own. Ideally, employees should have the option of union or non-union, and better still, which union suits them most. > [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > The thing is, Michigan’s new law isn’t at all about reform. It’s about crushing unions, just like Wisconsin’s law restricting unions. The Michigan law is the only labor reform that Michigan can accomplish. They are authorized by Taft-Hartley to pass such a law. They can’t repeal or overturn the NLRA on their own, after all. RTW is the only tool in their box. > [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > I still think that the Michigan law flies in the face of Beck. If that’s the case, then it’s a simple matter of filing a suit. > [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > Part of the reason, I think, that 'luci seems to you to be taking lots of partisan shots is that although you think you are putting forth a neutral tone and argument, you are coming across as fairly partisan yourself. I’m discussing the law and unions, he’s demonizing Republicans, by name. That’s the partisanship I referred to. > [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > For instance, please don’t stoop to trying to equate any of the violence that union members have committed with the state-sponsored murders and terrorism that employers have purchased and backed. They are easily equated. > [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > You do seem to be well-informed about labor law and it’s history, and I think that’s terrific: it contributes a lot to the discussion and debate. But so far you seem to come down heavily in favor of employers and you seem to have a disdain for unions. Thank you. My “coming down heavily in favor of employers” is a desire for balance between union and labor under the law, which doesn’t presently exist. As to a disdain for unions: > [@Human Action](#): > > Not all unions or union practices are equal, though. > [@Human Action](#): > > The goal isn’t to harm unions, it’s to apply market forces to labor. Harming unions only becomes a goal when they block this process, against the interests of the greater public. > [@Human Action](#): > > there’s no reason unions and employers can’t continue to work productively together. > [@Human Action](#): > > They [Southwest Airlines] are thus an example of union-management cooperation and mutual prosperity, without coercive laws. > [@Human Action](#): > > I’m a moderate libertarian, and don’t hold unions to be intrinsically good or bad. My objection is to the abuses they are capable of under federal law. > [@Human Action](#): > > I don’t think anyone is saying the unions should not exist. I disagree with your assessment. Unions, for the most part, have just responded rationally to the laws as written. It’s the law that needs changing, there’s nothing wrong with the existence of unions. > [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > I decided the question about reform would just end up being a hijack of this thread so I started this new thread about the reform of US labor law for anyone who wants to contribute their US$.02 about what they consider to be the problems with current laws and their thoughts on solutions to same. I shall answer your other questions in this thread. > [@Ruken](#): > > Snowboarder Bo points out several examples of how workers can benefit from being in a union in a RTW state, while still allowing workers with sufficient skill to go it alone to compete. Indeed he does, and “Workers can benefit from being in a union, while still allowing workers to go it alone” is exactly the ideal we should be seeking. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/240 "2012-12-14T14:54:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > [Matthew Davis: Michigan right-to-work protesters who destroyed hot dog vendor's equipment should face charges - mlive.com](http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/12/matthew_davis_michigan_right-t.html) > > Seems too cartoonish to be true. Well, the article certainly does. > [@](#): > > …the pro-freedom organization, Americans For Prosperity… I’m sure AFP describe themselves as “pro-freedom”, but I can’t imagine any serious journalist credulous enough to use that line. ETA: Looking at Matthew Davis’ [other articles](http://connect.mlive.com/user/MatthewGDavis/posts.html), it appears all he does is write editorials couched as news. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673.md?page=13)