# Michigan Contemplates Becoming Right-To-Work **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673 "2012-12-11T02:56:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/61 "2012-12-11T17:28:05Z")
**BobLibDem** , do they do recalls in Michigan? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/62 "2012-12-11T17:35:52Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > This is all about politics, the Republicans want to castrate the unions because they can mobilize Democratic voters. It can’t also be about economic reform of a troubled state? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/63 "2012-12-11T17:35:59Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > **BobLibDem** , do they do recalls in Michigan? They have to be in office for 6 months, so for those that were recently re-elected we have to wait till Jan. 1. The conniving bastards made an appropriation as part of their law and because of this, it can’t be overturned by referendum. Unless of course that appropriate is found in court to be nothing but a sham to preclude a referendum. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/64 "2012-12-11T17:37:12Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > It can’t also be about economic reform of a troubled state? Not really. Most of the employers have pretty good relations with their unions and didn’t want to rock the boat with this travesty. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/65 "2012-12-11T17:38:39Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Not so. > > The [Burkhauser-Larrimore-Simon](http://ntj.tax.org/wwtax/ntjrec.nsf/009a9a91c225e83d852567ed006212d8/30212f14664082b1852579b5006904e1/$FILE/A01_Larrimore.pdf) study found a 37% increase in real median income from 1979-2007. > > The [Gordon study](http://faculty-web.at.northwestern.edu/economics/gordon/sfonber_combined_090902.pdf) found a 52% increase in real median income, 1979-2007. > > The [Meyer-Sullivan study](http://www.nd.edu/~jsulliv4/well_being_middle_class_poor4.3.pdf) found a 50% increase in real median income, 1980-2008, from a 69% increase in GDP. That gap is attributable to wealth inequality (the rich getting richer), but it’s false to say middle class wages haven’t grown in real terms. I said WAGES have been stagnant, not income. And I note that the reports you cite all use the same trick: they include health care benefits like Medicare and Medicaid as income for households. That creates an impression of less inequality of course because health care expenses have been going up like a rocket over the last few decades. Here’s [a New York Times article debunking the Burkhauser study](http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/22/the-fight-over-inequality/), it makes pretty clear what has gone on. Note that even if you take the CBO study as your gold standard, the graph indicates that the vast majority of the gold has been going to the one percent. But if you look at money in people’s hands, the fact remains, wealth for the middle class has been stagnant.[Here’s a CNN article addressing the point.](http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/16/news/economy/middle_class/index.htm) with some very indicative graphs. > [@](#): > > Not all unions or union practices are equal, though. Have there been no union practices harmful to the nation as a whole? Certianly some have, for example, the way some unions let organized crime get into their pension funds. It would be terrible if that happened in the rest of the na … wait, it did. Corporations loot their employee pension funds all the time. I guess the moral is, you don’t have to be perfect to be an improvement. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/66 "2012-12-11T17:41:19Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > This ridiculous law ensures that Snyder will not serve a second term. Thousands of protesters are at the Capitol at this time, but of course their voices will be ignored. There will be recalls over this and the legislature is not going to stay in Republican hands for long. This is all about politics, the Republicans want to castrate the unions because they can mobilize Democratic voters. This will fail, just as the attempts at voter suppression failed last month. And just like the recall effort in Wisconsin kicked Walker out of office. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/67 "2012-12-11T17:45:57Z")
Seems like a done deal, according to [this](http://news.yahoo.com/protesters-march-michigan-capitol-over-vote-054656984.html) article on Yahoo! > [@](#): > > LANSING, Michigan (Reuters) - The Republican-majority Michigan legislature gave final approval on Tuesday to “right-to-work” restrictions on public sector unions in a state considered a stronghold of organized labor, as protesters chanted in the gallery and thousands rallied outside. > [@](#): > > The right-to-work movement has been growing in the United States in recent years. Indiana earlier this year became the first state in the industrial Midwest to approve right-to-work and several other states are watching the Michigan action closely. > > Michigan would become the 24th state to enact right-to-work provisions in a stunning blow to the power of organized labor in the United States, which has suffered a series of setbacks in recent years. I found this part of the article interesting, though not a lot of detail: > [@](#): > > A few protesters were ejected from the Capitol after they chanted slogans from the gallery during the debate. Outside of the building, protesters tore down two tents set up for supporters of right-to-work as the crowd applauded but Adamczyk said there had been no arrests by late morning. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/68 "2012-12-11T17:50:46Z")
> [@XT](#): > > :dubious: Seriously, how do you figure this? If more US companies had unions, you figure that this would mean more jobs and higher salaries? How? Well, I have noticed that while wages are stagnant, corporations are awash in cash. They do not hire people, they do not give raises to their employees, except for top management of course. If unions were strong, ordinary workers would be making … and spending … a lot more money. Increasing demand, and causing more people to be hired … at good union wages. > [@](#): > > It would only be if labor could hold a gun to our collective heads and force us to pay a premium for labor without any additional value add that salaries in the US wouldn’t be stagnant or falling…and then, it would only be as long as the companies anchored with such weight could continue to exist AND for those chosen few in the unions. This is pretty much what needs to happen. Someone, either labor or government needs to hold a gun to corporate management’s heads and make them raise wages for ordinary workers with all that cash they’ve got sitting around. Hell, Random House gave EACH and EVERY one of their company employees a $5000 bonus thanks to the effect of Fifty Shades of Grey this year. What will those employees do with that money? Spend it, most of them! Random House is doing the responsible thing! ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/69 "2012-12-11T17:50:49Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > [Section 25-7-32](http://alisondb.legislature.state.al.us/acas/CodeofAlabama/1975/coatoc.htm) > Employers not to require union membership as condition of employment, etc. > No person shall be required by an employer to become or remain a member of any labor union or labor organization as a condition of employment or continuation of employment. > > So you can’t compel people to join the union or be fired, but you can choose to hire union members. “To become or remain”. I am not allowed to only have union members working for me. If a guy gets hired, then quits the union, I am not allowed to get rid of him even though he’s literally doubled by administrative requirements for dealing with worker contracts. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/70 "2012-12-11T17:57:39Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Not so. > > The [Burkhauser-Larrimore-Simon](http://ntj.tax.org/wwtax/ntjrec.nsf/009a9a91c225e83d852567ed006212d8/30212f14664082b1852579b5006904e1/$FILE/A01_Larrimore.pdf) study found a 37% increase in real median income from 1979-2007. > [@Burkhauser et al. cited above](#): > > **When using the most restrictive income definition — pre-tax, pre-transfer tax unit cash (market) income — the resources available to the middle class have stagnated over the past three business cycles.** In contrast, once broadening the income defi nition to post-tax, post-transfer, size-adjusted household cash income, middle class Americans are found to have made substantial gains, and these increases are even larger when **including non-cash income such as the ex-ante value of health insurance**. Additionally, as we demonstrate using the example of the benefits of the tax exclusion of employer provided health insurance, these measurement decisions impact the extent to which we view policy benefi ts as skewed towards the top or bottom of the income distribution or view them as distributed more widely to individuals of all incomes. > > So which income series is superior? This depends on the research question. For > researchers **interested in how middle class Americans are compensated for their time in the labor market, for example, it is more appropriate to use pre-tax, pre-transfer (market) income**, although even here researchers who **ignore the dramatic increase in the ex-ante value of employer health insurance** will understate the returns to work in the United States and disproportionately do so for workers in middle class households. > > However, for those interested in the overall economic resources available to individuals, it is more appropriate to consider income defined as broadly as possible, consistent with the traditional Haig-Simons measure of comprehensive income as the best measure of ability to pay tax. (bolding added for emphasis) So in other words, you’re citing the vast increases in health care costs 1979-2007 as increasing economic power of the middle class? :dubious: Not a lot of people look at that and say the middle class is doing fine because the health insurance borne by their employers is more expensive. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Made_French_Toast_For_You)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/71 "2012-12-11T17:59:12Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > It can’t also be about economic reform of a troubled state? Is there any solid evidence that harming unions significantly helps state economies? Evidence that the benefits of right to work legislation balances out the loss of wages and benefits for workers that come with it? (Keeping in mind that 17.5% of workers in Michigan belong to unions, not counting many other workers that don’t belong to unions but still pay fees and reap benefits.) [QUOTE=XT] Seems like a done deal, according to this article on Yahoo! [/QUOTE] It was a done deal before it hit the public. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/72 "2012-12-11T18:01:25Z")
Have their been any polls in Michigan to see whether most people in Michigan feel about becoming a right-to-work state? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Made_French_Toast_For_You)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/73 "2012-12-11T18:17:04Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Have their been any polls in Michigan to see whether most people in Michigan feel about becoming a right-to-work state? [Most Michiganders support it.](http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/16695) But keep in mind that 1) most people don’t belong to a union, 2) millions and millions of dollars have been spent in favor of right to work in this state by conservative groups, and 3) the issue is framed as a boon for individual freedoms (“I shouldn’t have to join a union or pay dues if I don’t want to!”) without mentioning the losses to wages and rights incurred by those same people. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/74 "2012-12-11T18:20:52Z")
> [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](#): > > (Keeping in mind that 17.5% of workers in Michigan belong to unions, not counting many other workers that don’t belong to unions but still pay fees and reap benefits.) From the site I linked earlier: ```auto Sector Obs Employment Members Covered %Mem %Cov Total 3,677 3,843,814 670,935 702,621 17.5 18.3 Private 3,160 3,313,229 394,814 410,769 11.9 12.4 Public 517 530,586 276,121 291,852 52.0 55.0 Priv. Construction 146 153,527 30,447 30,447 19.8 19.8 Priv. Manufacturing 634 656,367 131,913 133,748 20.1 20.4 ``` > **[Union Membership and Coverage Database](http://www.unionstats.com/)** © 2012 by Barry T. Hirsch and David A. Macpherson. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/75 "2012-12-11T18:22:43Z")
Since we’ve gone on to general comments about unions, I hope this isn’t too off topic. One thing I’ve always wondered is why unions have to be certified. Why not just allow individual workers to sign up with whatever union they wish to join and require employers to negotiate with whatever union the worker has chosen? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/76 "2012-12-11T18:23:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And just like the recall effort in Wisconsin kicked Walker out of office. With 58% approval of this law, per **Frenchie’s** cite, it looks like a winning position at the polls for the GOP. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/77 "2012-12-11T18:24:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And just like the recall effort in Wisconsin kicked Walker out of office. This is bigger. The Walker recall failed because Wisconsin voters didn’t think the action against public employees didn’t warrant a recall, not that they approved of Walker. Walker will go down in 2014, no question. Snyder’s appeal was in part that he wasn’t a flaming right-wing ideologue, now he has been unmasked. He’s going down, if not by recall, then certainly by 2014. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/78 "2012-12-11T18:36:00Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > This is bigger. The Walker recall failed because Wisconsin voters didn’t think the action against public employees didn’t warrant a recall, not that they approved of Walker. Walker will go down in 2014, no question. Snyder’s appeal was in part that he wasn’t a flaming right-wing ideologue, now he has been unmasked. He’s going down, if not by recall, then certainly by 2014. 58% of the populace of MI are “flaming right-wing ideologues”? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/79 "2012-12-11T18:44:41Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > “To become or remain”. I am not allowed to only have union members working for me. If a guy gets hired, then quits the union, I am not allowed to get rid of him even though he’s literally doubled by administrative requirements for dealing with worker contracts. Actually, you could get rid of that worker. In the US, employment is “at will”. Of course, this is the will of the employer not the employee. Employers don’t need a cause to fire someone. So once your employee leaves the union, you just fire him and hire someone else who is a union member. That said, how long will the American public continue to believe anything that conservatives say about job creation? Cutting taxes on the wealthy doesn’t create jobs and RTW laws don’t create jobs. This is just another fleecing of the public by the Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673/80 "2012-12-11T18:59:06Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Actually, you could get rid of that worker. In the US, employment is “at will”. Of course, this is the will of the employer not the employee. Employers don’t need a cause to fire someone. > > So once your employee leaves the union, you just fire him and hire someone else who is a union member. Except that the law specifically forbids me compelling a worker to remain part of the union to remain employed. Firing him for quitting the union violates that, as threatening his continued employment is a form of compulsion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-contemplates-becoming-right-to-work/643673.md?page=5)