# Michigan finally passed a smoking ban! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2009, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-finally-passed-a-smoking-ban/520818 "2009-12-11T03:22:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![da\_pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ba0ec/32.png) [@da\_pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/da_pope)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-finally-passed-a-smoking-ban/520818/41 "2009-12-13T01:44:43Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I’ve always thought this whole thing could be avoided if they’d just try to make a relatively cheap way to get nicotine into people’s bodies that doesn’t produce smoke. It shouldn’t be that hard. > > And if such a thing already exists, why the heck aren’t smokers taking advantage of it? E- Cigarettes Haven’t smoked a real cigarette in 6 months. I sit at my desk all day at work and ‘smoke’ > **[E-Cigarette Forum](https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/)** > > E-Cigarette Forum is the world's largest vape and ecig website. ECF is global vaping central - start here. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-finally-passed-a-smoking-ban/520818/42 "2009-12-13T02:08:34Z")
I know of no smoke free restaurants in Dearborn Heights area. But the internets says there are over 2 thousand in Michigan. The only ones I know that tried ,gave up. They must blanket the UP. ---
**Author:** ![2ply](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/b2d939/32.png) [@2ply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ply)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-finally-passed-a-smoking-ban/520818/43 "2009-12-13T02:23:44Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > Will this be the staw that finally makes the people in the UP revolt and form the [state of Superior](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_(proposed_U.S._state))? 🙂 No, but if it happened, the only result would be that Mississippi would stop being at the very bottom of all those US poverty rankings. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-finally-passed-a-smoking-ban/520818/44 "2009-12-13T04:13:24Z")
With regard to statewide public smoking bans, the dominoes are going to keep falling. There’s no way you can justify exposing workers or other members of the public to such a risk when it reflects a non-essential activity pursued by a declining minority of the population, and the harm is readily preventable. The idea of exempting casinos from no-smoking laws has already met with [considerable resistance](http://www.no-smoke.org/goingsmokefree.php?id=104). While gaming establishments may think they’re benefiting by such exemptions, successful lawsuits from employees sickened or killed by secondhand smoke (a.k.a. “the swinging arms of the tort attorneys” :D), are likely to change their minds. ---
**Author:** ![DadWagonDriver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/edb3f5/32.png) [@DadWagonDriver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DadWagonDriver)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-finally-passed-a-smoking-ban/520818/45 "2009-12-13T07:40:15Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I know of no smoke free restaurants in Dearborn Heights area. But the internets says there are over 2 thousand in Michigan. The only ones I know that tried ,gave up. They must blanket the UP. I think that number must include fast food restaurants. I only knew of three non-smoking, non-fast food places, and they were also breweries (Bell’s, Kraftbrau, and Sherwood). I’m in AZ now, where there has been a smoking ban for a few years. I, personally, like the smoking ban, as I don’t smoke. ---
**Author:** ![Digger1914](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@Digger1914](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digger1914)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-finally-passed-a-smoking-ban/520818/46 "2009-12-13T12:02:04Z")
I’m still not hearing a reasonable argument why there should not be the possibility of smoking and non-smoking restaurants in the same municipality. The owners decide how they want to run their business and the general public decides what type of restaurant they want to patronize. If a member of the general public wants to experience the food in one of these smoking restaurants, then they have to decide how valuable it is to them. I stop going to certain stores because of the volume of type of music. No difference here. As for the employees. Nobody is forced to work for a certain employer. Let’s put it this way, the coal miners down in West Virginia, I don’t feel particularly sorry for them when they develop Black Lung. They chose to stay in that section of the country and work in a very dangerous environment. They aren’t suing their employer for the life choices they made. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-finally-passed-a-smoking-ban/520818/47 "2009-12-13T16:16:25Z")
> [@Digger1914](#): > > Let’s put it this way, the coal miners down in West Virginia, I don’t feel particularly sorry for them when they develop Black Lung. They chose to stay in that section of the country and work in a very dangerous environment. That’s a big-hearted viewpoint. :dubious: So no regulations should exist to make coal mining safer? Or to reduce the hazard of working in a textile mill, or in the case of passive smoke inhalation to prevent an increased risk of cardiorespiratory and other ailments in restaurant staff? I don’t know what kind of job you have, but I’d bet there is some form of state and/or federal regulation that applies to safety on your job site (fire, hazardous materials, whatever). Should we exempt your employer from compliance, on the grounds that you chose whatever hazards might exist and can always go elsewhere if you don’t like it? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-finally-passed-a-smoking-ban/520818/48 "2009-12-13T16:38:25Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I don’t know what kind of job you have, but I’d bet there is some form of state and/or federal regulation that applies to safety on your job site (fire, hazardous materials, whatever). Should we exempt your employer from compliance, on the grounds that you chose whatever hazards might exist and can always go elsewhere if you don’t like it? No. But if a bar owner wants to cater to smokers (a clientele it’s perfectly reasonable he might want to accommodate), then you can’t guard employees from smoke without changing the nature of what the owner wants to offer. The waitress can work elsewhere if she’d like, in that instance. If I want to work in the pit crew at a racetrack, I might expect that there be fire extinguishers handy (a reasonable regulation protecting employee safety), but I can’t bitch about the fumes. That’s the nature of the industry I chose to work in. If I don’t want to smell car fumes, I need to find a different place to work. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-finally-passed-a-smoking-ban/520818/49 "2009-12-13T17:58:42Z")
> [@Digger1914](#): > > I’m still not hearing a reasonable argument why there should not be the possibility of smoking and non-smoking restaurants in the same municipality. > > As for the employees. Nobody is forced to work for a certain employer. Let’s put it this way, the coal miners down in West Virginia, I don’t feel particularly sorry for them when they develop Black Lung. They chose to stay in that section of the country and work in a very dangerous environment. They aren’t suing their employer for the life choices they made. Well, unfortunately, it never works like that. When it’s a choice, there are usually less than 1% non-smoking restaurants around. That’s because the owners think it will cost them business. However, when they are forced into non-smoking only, they find it doesn’t. The tobacco industry puts out a lot of propaganda, which “clouds mens minds”. Next- if you don’t have a job, you don;t eat and thus die. It’s not a choice. It’s not like there are extra jobs going begging in todays economy.:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-finally-passed-a-smoking-ban/520818/50 "2009-12-13T17:59:07Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > That’s a big-hearted viewpoint. :dubious: > So no regulations should exist to make coal mining safer? Or to reduce the hazard of working in a textile mill, or in the case of passive smoke inhalation to prevent an increased risk of cardiorespiratory and other ailments in restaurant staff? > > I don’t know what kind of job you have, but I’d bet there is some form of state and/or federal regulation that applies to safety on your job site (fire, hazardous materials, whatever). Should we exempt your employer from compliance, on the grounds that you chose whatever hazards might exist and can always go elsewhere if you don’t like it? So don’t **ban** smoking in restaurants, simply make sure that restaurants have proper ventilation. Seems a much more reasonable thing to do. Those regulations aren’t about preventing those industries from doing business (ignoring the fact that those industries are all production, and not service based), they’re regulations about ensuring safe work environments. Unless I’m woefully incorrect, and I’m not, being a waitress is still a relatively safe work environment – even with 2nd hand smoke. Adding a bit of ventilation, if it’s shown to help at all, doesn’t seem like an unreasonable way to work this out. That, and a nice 8x11 sign on the door of any restaurant that chooses to allow smoking, just so people don’t get their knickers in a twist. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-finally-passed-a-smoking-ban/520818/51 "2009-12-13T18:28:40Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > So don’t **ban** smoking in restaurants, simply make sure that restaurants have proper ventilation. Seems a much more reasonable thing to do.) It’s totally impractical to have enough ventilation to protect the staff from dudes smoking in their faces. You do not have the right to kill other people even if you are an addict. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-finally-passed-a-smoking-ban/520818/52 "2009-12-13T18:36:47Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You do not have the right to kill other people even if you are an addict. Yes, so people who have no reasonable alternative should not be subjected to cigarette smoke. Which, of course, excludes those who frequent restaurants and bars. All this “I will be killed by your cigarette smoke” nonsense is tiresome. There is clearly a solution. Don’t go to places or work at places that permit smoking. It’s not a subway platform or a hospital or a public library. It’s a bar. Don’t go in. Problem solved. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-finally-passed-a-smoking-ban/520818/53 "2009-12-13T20:27:39Z")
Nobody is stopping you from smoking. If you absolutely have to have a cigarette, walk outside and smoke your brains out. Nobody cares. Just don’t think you have a right to blow smoke in others peoples faces , make them take it in their lungs and pollute their hair and clothes. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-finally-passed-a-smoking-ban/520818/54 "2009-12-13T20:59:11Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Nobody is stopping you from smoking. If you absolutely have to have a cigarette, walk outside and smoke your brains out. Nobody cares. Just don’t think you have a right to blow smoke in others peoples faces , make them take it in their lungs and pollute their hair and clothes. And I shouldn’t have to breathe your oxides of nitrogen, your carbon monoxide, or your soot. Stopped driving yet? Turned off your furnace yet? You don’t get to pick which pollution I have to live with while telling me what pollution you won’t live with. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-finally-passed-a-smoking-ban/520818/55 "2009-12-13T23:27:08Z")
> [@Digger1914](#): > > I’m still not hearing a reasonable argument why there should not be the possibility of smoking and non-smoking restaurants in the same municipality. > > The owners decide how they want to run their business and the general public decides what type of restaurant they want to patronize. If a member of the general public wants to experience the food in one of these smoking restaurants, then they have to decide how valuable it is to them. I stop going to certain stores because of the volume of type of music. No difference here. > > As for the employees. Nobody is forced to work for a certain employer. Let’s put it this way, the coal miners down in West Virginia, I don’t feel particularly sorry for them when they develop Black Lung. They chose to stay in that section of the country and work in a very dangerous environment. They aren’t suing their employer for the life choices they made. That is miles off. When there are unhealthy or dangerous working conditions OSHA comes in. You can not just allow dangerous conditions to exist. As for employers, it was a huge battle to force them to better working conditions. It went on for generations. We ended child labor laws a long time ago. But employers fought hard. Auto plants were terribly dangerous . Unions and the government fought for decades to make them safer. There are a hell of a lot of employers who do not care about the welfare of their workers. You seem to think that is fine. But a lot of places are practically one industry towns. Letting them do whatever they want would be horrific. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-finally-passed-a-smoking-ban/520818/56 "2009-12-14T00:37:35Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Nobody is stopping you from smoking. If you absolutely have to have a cigarette, walk outside and smoke your brains out. Nobody cares. Just don’t think you have a right to blow smoke in others peoples faces , make them take it in their lungs and pollute their hair and clothes. Nobody is forcing you to enter an establishment that permits smoking. I do indeed have the right to smoke in a place that permits it, and while I’d try to be as considerate about as is practical, if you don’t want to breathe smoke, here’s a hint: don’t go to places that permit it. Any of this sinking in? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-finally-passed-a-smoking-ban/520818/57 "2009-12-14T01:32:56Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Y > > All this “I will be killed by your cigarette smoke” nonsense is tiresome. There is clearly a solution. Don’t go to places or work at places that permit smoking. Don’t foist your nasty addiction upon others, ruing their health. It’s your choice to be a drug addict, and kill yourself. Others do not want to do this. \*Don’t smoke in public. \ ***Problem solved.** ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Rosetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Green\_Rosetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Rosetta)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-finally-passed-a-smoking-ban/520818/58 "2009-12-14T01:41:27Z")
This is a hot debate in Indianapolis right now. Recently in one of the alternative newspapers, there was an opinion piece that said of the 4,000 business in Indianapolis, around 40 allow smoking indoors. I think that it is extremely reasonable to allow those bars to continue to allow smoking, as someone who doesn’t want to breath smoke can go to one of the other 3,960 businesses. Most smokers I know (myself included) are more than happy to accompany friends to non-smoking bars, because I can go outside and smoke and not bother anyone. However, when I’m with my smoker friends, and we want to smoke inside, I think it’s fair that we go to the bars where smoking is allowed (and funny how often I see the bartenders there smoking during their shifts- I don’t think they’re crying into their pillows over the second hand smoke.) It seems to me that most people tend to know which bars allow smoking and which don’t and plan accordingly. There, everyone is happy. I am all for not smoking in restaurants, bowling alleys, etc. But we are adults and have PLENTY of alternatives if we want to avoid something. ---
**Author:** ![Digger1914](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@Digger1914](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digger1914)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-finally-passed-a-smoking-ban/520818/59 "2009-12-14T03:05:45Z")
Since many states and municipalities currently have smoking bans, the next logical step with the economy the way it is, would be for the state to sell smoking licenses, like liquor licenses. The state makes some extra cash and the state can also limit how many bar/restaurants get to have one (let’s say ten percent). People can choose how to spend their time and money and the state gets a little extra cash in the process. This is simply and issue about choice and the majority shoving limits down the throats of the minority. I always thought the govt was there to protect the rights and freedoms of the minority. Some of the responses remind me of “when they came for the smokers, I didn’t mind, because I wasn’t a smoker…” It’s just a matter of time that something that matter to you will be attempted to be taken away. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-finally-passed-a-smoking-ban/520818/60 "2009-12-14T03:35:49Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Don’t foist your nasty addiction upon others, ruing their health. It’s your choice to be a drug addict, and kill yourself. Others do not want to do this. \*Don’t smoke in public. \ ***Problem solved.** But I would never do such a thing! I would never, ever smoke in a place where smoking wasn’t permitted or where people weren’t able to come and go as they pleased. You don’t want to breathe smoke? Don’t go into a place that permits it by the guy who owns the place. Problem solved. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-finally-passed-a-smoking-ban/520818.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michigan-finally-passed-a-smoking-ban/520818.md?page=4)