You’re comparing a neighborhood tavern to a nuclear plant? Come on man, you can do better than that.
I’ve never understood the argument for smoking that they should be allowed because they “like” to do it. I “like” chocolate, does that mean I can eat a chocolate bar at a bus stop/in a bar/restaurant and be allowed to smear/drizzle it all over you, if I “like” to do that? It’s not harmful, nobody’s going to die… yet I’m willing to be that you’d probably object to having melted chocolate all over you if you didn’t ask for it.
I’ve never understood the argument for smoking that they should be allowed because they “like” to do it. I “like” free speech, does that mean I can talk about how awesome the Nazi party was at a bus stop/in a bar/restaurant and be allowed to talk about it loud enough for you to hear, if I “like” to do that? It’s not harmful, nobody’s going to die… yet I’m willing to be that you’d probably object to having antisemetic bullshit all over you if you didn’t ask for it.
Oh, that’s right, because you don’t have to understand or like things for them to be rights. You don’t have the right to do it on private property, but you do have the right if the proprieter grants you permission. You Sony have the right to smoke on private property unless the proprieter grants you permission.
So, the delivery dude can’t bring in the beer, and no mail for you? And how about the police, code enforcement and other inspectors? Think the sign will keep them out?
Well, as my pub ALLOWS smoking, I don’t have any issues with the legalities of it. And as for the “delivery dudes”, well, they actually deliver my goods at a side entrance. My mailbox is outside, and some of my regular patrons ARE police. Who smoke.
So, someone calls 911 for a collapse. The Medical techs, the ambulance dudes, the firemen and police all have to be smokers get in. *Sure. * And somehow, your bar doesn;t get regular health, fire or code inspections- because it’s "legal’. :dubious:
More denial, more rationalizing.
I get regular inspections. I don’t understand where you’re going with that reasoning.
I’m confused, are you saying that police officers, EMT’s and code inspectors don’t go anywhere where there’s smoking? What about private residences and smoke shops (which are typically exempt, and certainly are in the Ohio Ban)?
And, don’t even get into the utter lunacy of claiming that fire fighters are somehow offended by 2nd hand smoke, I know many fire fighters who don’t care, and wouldn’t even notice if the smoke was anything less than burning polyester.
You are presuming ownership gives you the right to determine the health effects of smoke on patrons and employees. The law they passed should make it clear that you do not have that right. The state has the power to protect the health of its citizens, even over the rights of an owner who is trying to justify the right to imperil them.
Actually, I don’t determine anything as my employees choose to work at my pub. And until the ban hits my state, well, you’re allowed to smoke.
So we’re back to talking an actual ban of all smoking and not this patchwork quilt of state laws? I can go for that; I’m better at watching industries get crushed than watching little guys battered out of business.
In all of this I’ve come across some interesting things. One is from the New England Journal of Medicine - hardly what I would call a pro-tobacco publication. In 2007, they estimated an individual would need to spend 4,000 hours in a smoke filled room to inhale the amount of smoke in one cigarette. SHS is NOT harmless ------- but the greatest health threat we face in the workplace? Especially if our workplace is a bar?
Getting the bus at 7th and Penn I’ve had more than one lunch end up on my clothes or shoes. You want to talk food control, I can have your poster children photographed and separated by category next Thursday! But then again, I’m the one debating against actual public smoking while Gonzo and others are debating for it. Go figure! 
Some “likes” are a matter of social preference as much as physical preference. I like sports and I enjoy debating politics and economics ------ I love all of those in the social setting of a bar or club formed partly for that purpose. That is why I’ve participated in cigar bars and cigar clubs long before all this regulation stuff came around - they are better centers for debate than even this board. I found “my crowd” - the people I like to gather with; even when we don’t always agree.
If “your crowd” is a certain religion, ethnic background, community, philosophy or whatever, I would hope you always have the chance to gather with them - with kindred souls - in a bar or club of your choice. Even if the cause is sloppy chocolate consumption. Heck - I’ll even spring for the first round of Nestles.
Does that make the “like” aspect a little more clear?
Kopek, feel free to come down to my pub.
Private residences do not require regular visits by the Fire Marshal, ABC, Police, Code Enforcement and Health dept. Bars do have such visits. Now, since you do not run a bar, etc, it’s not surprising that you do not know this. However, it’s pretty clear that Darth_Hamsandwich, who is clearly unaware of such requirements, does not own such a business, either.
Thanks, Darth, much appreciated.
Wow, what a burn. I bet Darth runs out and sells his pub, given his humiliation.
To your nonsensical point: A private residence might get a visit from a parcel deliverer, or an EMT might have to come by, or any of a number of possibilities. Even if your premise wasn’t nonsensical for this reason, and we accepted that 4 seconds of exposure to SHS smoke is a health hazard, there’s an easy solution. No smoking during official visits. Solved!
No, just another straw man. Or perhaps you weren’t aware that sociopathic killing is illegal under any and all circumstances (insanity defenses aside). It’s not a preference that we accommodate under any circumstance.
But, if you want to put the legality aside, in that bizarro world I personally am okay with an establishment where everyone willingly accepts the risk. Fire away, kill each other, feel free. I just won’t go in to such an establishment myself.
At a bus stop, no. At a bar where that was the understood custom, I still wouldn’t like it, but I’d have a solution. I wouldn’t go into such a place. See how it works?
Can’t sell what he doesn’t own. He clearly knows nothing about such a business.
The UPS guy does not come into your home. The Budweiser dude does come into the bar. However, the Fire Marshal, ABC, Police, Code Enforcement and Health dept come in for inspections lasting an hour or more, not 4 seconds. And, even though you may not allow smoking during official visits, do you think the smoke knows that and magically goes away?:dubious:
Parcel delivery service happens without the deliverer setting foot into the home. I barely even open the door for my packages, and that’s only if I have to sign for something. EMTs have never had to enter my home, either. It’s possible that they MIGHT, but I think that in my somewhat extended family, consisting of my parents’ family, my own family, my grandparents, my aunts, uncles, and their offspring, something like a hundred people all told…we’ve had an EMT actually enter one of our households a grand total of ONE time. It’s not a frequent occurence.
On the other hand, a business gets visits from officials on a pretty frequent basis.
I’ve been a nonsmoker in a place and time when smoking was freely permitted. Even in nonsmoking establishments or areas within establishments, smokers felt free to light up in a book store, for instance, or in the nonsmoking area, and then throw a hissy fit when they were told that it was a nonsmoking store or area. In my experience, too, there were very few places that were nonsmoking, until they were forced by law to either go nonsmoking or offer nonsmoking areas. This meant that if I wanted to eat out, I had to swing by a fast food place, pick up something, and eat in my car, because there WERE no nonsmoking restaurants, or even restaurants that offered nonsmoking areas.
Smokers have only their fellow smokers to blame. In the past, when we’ve had these threads, we’ve had assholes who proudly proclaim that they make a point of lighting up beneath the “Thank you for not smoking” signs. These people are the reason why there are laws against smoking in public places, because too many people will go ahead and smoke without consideration.