# Microsoft = Spawn of Satan. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 13, 2008, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/microsoft-spawn-of-satan/467795 "2008-10-13T23:48:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/microsoft-spawn-of-satan/467795/41 "2008-10-18T22:17:59Z")
> [@HookerChemical](#): > > Nope. I use ¶ sometimes, but it’s nothing like the wonder that is Reveal Codes. Reveal Codes shows you everything in a pane. It shows where a font change begins and ends. It shows where formatting begins and ends. I don’t know how many times I’ve pasted into Word only to see my text formatted as something completely horrible. Three paragraphs of normal text will be in the header format or something equally horrible because a space character between two paragraphs was formatted in something strange. In WP, you can find all those nasty little formatting oddities and either kill them or move them to where they need to be. Ah, reveal codes. How I love thee. How I hate Word. I discovered a hidden Word bomb today. For some time I’d been bothered by the auto capitalization feature seeming to malfunction. Lo & behold, there is a feature in the auto-format box to add exceptions, so that words after abbreviations, say, don’t automatically get capitalized. All well and good–except that the default is to add any capitalization changes you ever make to the “exception” list, and to NOT TELL YOU. That caused the following. Let’s say I had at some point typed the sequence Jack McCoy. Is the main character on Law & Order and uppon noticing the accidental period after “McCoy” had caused the “is” to be capitalized. I’d edit it by deleting the period, the space, and the capital I, and then typing space and a lower case i. Word takes this as instructing to NEVER capitalize after McCoy.. and doesn’t tell me. And, of course, in the last year and a half I’ve done that ten zillion times, so ten zillion such exceptions haev been added. Stupid Word. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/microsoft-spawn-of-satan/467795/42 "2008-10-18T23:13:57Z")
> [@unstrung](#): > > I’ll just go ahead and put the above in again, since you ignored it… Jesus fucking Christ, dude, can you fucking read? ---
**Author:** ![unstrung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a698b9/32.png) [@unstrung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unstrung)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/microsoft-spawn-of-satan/467795/43 "2008-10-18T23:19:52Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Ah,I discovered a hidden Word bomb today. For some time I’d been bothered by the auto capitalization feature seeming to malfunction. Lo & behold, there is a feature in the auto-format box to add exceptions, so that words after abbreviations, say, don’t automatically get capitalized. All well and good–except that the default is to add any capitalization changes you ever make to the “exception” list, and to NOT TELL YOU. This one I agree with. Having that option turned on by default is an incredibly bad idea… ---
**Author:** ![unstrung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a698b9/32.png) [@unstrung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unstrung)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/microsoft-spawn-of-satan/467795/44 "2008-10-18T23:40:07Z")
> [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > Jesus fucking Christ, dude, can you fucking read? I certainly can. You, I’m not so sure about. Nothing in your diatribe about the API changes the fact that a class full of autistic elementary school kids figured it out no problem. This is a pretty telling statement when questioning whether an interface is easy to use. I can repeat this as many times as you need to get the picture. But not only are you not grasping this point, you seem to not really be reading your own documentation. To wit: [QUOTE=Vista UX Guide (link in a previous post from Dead Badger)] Common Dialogs The common file dialogs consist of File Open and Save As. These standard dialog boxes allow users to find, open, and save files quickly and confidently. They can be used for inserting files, and can be customized for specialized uses as well. [/QUOTE] And here are links to some images of file open dialog boxes (Common Dialogs, yes?) from the programs you are whining about: [ul][li][Word 2007](http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=word07yx9.jpg)[/li][li][Notepad](http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=notepadrp7.jpg)[/li][li][Windows Media Player](http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mediaplayerpx3.jpg)[/li][li][Windows Visio](http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=visiojp3.jpg)[/ul][/li] Please point out these gigantic differences that are getting you all frothy at the mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/microsoft-spawn-of-satan/467795/45 "2008-10-19T08:37:03Z")
“Diatribe”? “Frothy”? I don’t know whose posts you’re reading, but they’re not mine. I’m getting annoyed at _you_ because you’re so obtuse we could use you as a straightedge. I apologise if you’re really sensitive about Word, though, I guess some of my words have been a touch harsh. I remember when this woman in the canteen at work said she found Ubuntu’s package management system unintuitive, and I had to go hide in the stationery cupboard and have a little cry. We’ve all been there, dude, so don’t worry about it. Anyway, I’m writing all of these things (we call them paragraphs; try reading the whole lot rather than just the first sentence) that express a complex point of view. To summarise it for you for what seems like the hundredth time, I am saying that _one specific bit_ of the new Office interface is a retrograde step. I have given an explanation of _why_ I think it is a retrograde step, and illustrated why I think it’s a fairly common Microsoft trait. I also explained what I like about the interface (the Ribbon), and expressed the opinion that it’s probably an improvement on balance. You have apparently read: “MICROSOFT SHIT! ME ANGRY! BADGER SMASH!” There is very little I can do with this sort of wilful stupidity, except to repeat myself in the hope that this time you’ll actually respond to what I wrote. I don’t care about your class of autistic kids, whether they exist or not (although I’m fairly sure at this point that _you’re_ a bit special). At no point have I expressed the opinion that Word is impossible to use, or that a newbie can’t pick it up; I am merely talking about one way in which it could be better, and indeed in which it _was_ better in previous versions. Your daft point is irrelevant. Finally, yes, under Vista the programs you illustrate do appear to use the common dialog. Under XP (which is what I’m running), Office and Visio do not (they use the special Office one), while the other two do. Of course, the way you access it is different in Visio (File \> Open), Word (Office Blob \> Open) and Media Player (Press Alt to reveal hidden menu \> File \> Open), but I expect that my pointing this out will be considered excessively frothy. ---
**Author:** ![unstrung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a698b9/32.png) [@unstrung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unstrung)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/microsoft-spawn-of-satan/467795/46 "2008-10-19T12:28:52Z")
Only talking about one specific element, eh? Well, lets just see here… > [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > Office has completely separate file dialogs to the rest of Windows, for example, for no good reason whatsoever. You are wrong here, as I pointed out. > [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > No, I don’t mean; they contain no new functionality that I can see, they’re just different for no reason. And even if Microsoft does write better file dialogs for one program, why aren’t they in Windows itself? If Microsoft doesn’t eat its own dogfood as far as its APIs are concerned, why should they expect anyone else to? Also here. > [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > I think you’re confused; I’m not talking about the dropdown menus, I’m talking about the file open and save dialog boxes. This sounds pretty specific to the dialog boxes - you even suggest I am confused for thinking you were talking about anything else. > [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > Are you trying to imply I’m making up the existence of standard dialog boxes? What do you think I’m confused about? This conversation is getting fucking weird. And here, the conversation is apparently getting “fucking weird”, and once again, the topic is standard dialog boxes. > [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > The common dialogs are a part of Windows (look! Even Microsoft [think so](http://support.microsoft.com/kb/161286)). The ones in Office are not a part of Windows. Office does not use the common dialogs Microsoft provide for everyone else. That is what I said, clearly. Ah. “Clearly”, even. > [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > Word uses a different File Open dialog to Visio, which uses a different one to Visual Studio; none of them use the Common File Open dialog. Hmmm. Now I wonder why one might think that you were talking about the common dialogs. Hmmm. Golly gee, why would one ever think that? Wait, it’s coming to me… hold on… oh, got it! It’s because you bitch about the common dialogs in six separate posts! Even if I were autistic, as you imply (and you can doubt the existence of my sisters’ special needs class all you like, they will continue to exist just fine regardless of your opinion), the above would probably be enough to illustrate that your end of this conversation is chock full o’ fail. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/microsoft-spawn-of-satan/467795/47 "2008-10-19T13:31:59Z")
What? When did I say I _wasn’t_ talking about the file dialogs? In regard to motherfucking _Word_ I am talking solely about one element (the Blob), whereas you keep pissing on about Word’s overall usability, which, as I say, is irrelevant. I was using the file dialogs as another example of how Microsoft create inconsistent UIs and ignore their own guidelines. How is it possible that you have not comprehended this yet? Look, I’ll do it in bullet points: [ul][li]The blob is bad, because it is non-standard for no reason.[/li][li]Consistent UI design is good.[/li][li]The inconsistent use of common UI elements is a Microsoft trait.[/li][li]The blob is an example (an exemplar, even) of this.[/li][/ul] That’s really it; it’s not tricky, you know. Yes, it appears that in Vista, Microsoft have rectified the file dialog aspect of their inconsistency; I apologise wholeheartedly for this unforgivable error on my part. Massive inconsistencies remain, however, none of which you’ve bothered to address, nor have you ever bothered to address the main point which is that **inconsistency for no reason is bad, and that the Blob is an example of this**. (Look, I even bolded it for you this time in the hope that it’ll somehow get through.) Honestly; anyone else who’s actually still reading this thread and somehow hasn’t been rendered comatose: am I typing in Swahili? Am I really being this incomprehensible? Help me out, here; this idiot is making me question my sanity. ---
**Author:** ![unstrung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a698b9/32.png) [@unstrung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unstrung)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/microsoft-spawn-of-satan/467795/48 "2008-10-19T20:20:27Z")
> [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > What? When did I say I _wasn’t_ talking about the file dialogs? In regard to motherfucking _Word_ I am talking solely about one element (the Blob), whereas you keep pissing on about Word’s overall usability, which, as I say, is irrelevant. Overall usability is irrelevant. Ok, sure. You’re definitely the guy I would want developing applications for my company :rolleyes: Anyway - no, Sparky, you haven’t been talking about solely the blob in _Word_. You’ve been whinging about the common dialog boxes that you claimed \*Word \*(and the rest of Office) don’t use. I’ll repeat - one of your complaints about “motherfucking _Word_” has been that it doesn’t use the common dialogs. I can understand how you might want to distance yourself from that perspective now that it has been shown just how laughably wrong you were about that, but it doesn’t change that it has been a major part of your bitching. The “inconsistency is bad” rule extends to conversations as well. In any event, let me try and soothe your little wounded self. Ok, the icon that you now press for open/save/print is slightly different than the word “file” that you used to press to access open/save/print. Heck, let’s even use the word “inconsistent” rather than “different” to prevent you from going into a seizure. Is it a worthy reason to be calling Microsoft (per the OP) the “spawn of satan”? Hardly. There’s probably a host of reasons that one could attribute that term to Microsoft, but this frankly ain’t one of them. > [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > I was using the file dialogs as another example of how Microsoft create inconsistent UIs and ignore their own guidelines. How is it possible that you have not comprehended this yet? And that example has been shown to be wrong. I don’t think I’m the one with comprehension issues here 😉 Why on earth would an example that is just plain incorrect prove anything? Who on earth would consider that a coherent position? I’ll answer my own question. It would probably be the same brainiac who programs Win32 apps, but doesn’t bother to check whether the issue he’s complaining about actually exists with the latest API. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/microsoft-spawn-of-satan/467795/49 "2008-10-19T21:50:24Z")
> [@unstrung](#): > > Overall usability is irrelevant. Ok, sure. You’re definitely the guy I would want developing applications for my company :rolleyes: No, you fucking cretin, overall usability is irrelevant to _whether a specific feature is good or bad_. Saying “autistic kids can use Word” has nothing to do with whether, specifically, the Blob is a good idea or not. No, the Blob is not so bad that it offsets the Ribbon’s improvement, but that still doesn’t make it good. Can’t you understand this? I’ve said it about five times. Are you going to continue ripping my sentences out of context until they cry? [ul][li]Within the context of Word, I was specifically criticising the Blob.[/li][li]I was using the dialogs (and other things) as an illustration of this criticism.[/ul][/li]If you can’t grasp these mindbogglingly simple points, there is no hope for you. And I was not wrong about Office using non-standard API calls. Here is what Office and Notepad look like under XP. [Notepad](http://img374.imageshack.us/my.php?image=notepadopenkw9.gif). [Office](http://img370.imageshack.us/my.php?image=officeopenal2.gif). Yes, they are very similar. No, they are not the same. And if you look closely at the corresponding ones you linked, they’re not exactly the same either; it appears that they’ve just redesigned the dialog that Office uses under Vista so it looks much more like the common dialog. This is a good thing, obviously, but it still doesn’t invalidate the point that Microsoft produces a wide array of programs with a wide array of inconsistent common elements, to which your sole response has been this dribble of piss: > [@](#): > > Is it a worthy reason to be calling Microsoft (per the OP) the “spawn of satan”? Who called them that, you insufferable berk? Was it me? No, it fucking well was not. For someone as keen as you are on pedanticising the words of other people to piffly death, I’d’ve thought you’d have noticed that a _completely different person_ said that. If all this time you were arguing about whether Microsoft are the spawn of Satan, it would’ve been nice if at one point you’d said, “I don’t think Microsoft are the spawn of Satan.” Then I would have said, “no, neither do I,” and we’d have gone home and drunk a beer, maybe caught some TV, and I wouldn’t be picturing you sitting in front of your computer with your underpants on your head, inserting Q-Tips up your nose to the hilt. Sadly, it seems you’re as incapable of articulating what _you’re_ on about as you are of understanding what _other_ people are on about. I’d say it’s just the cross you have to bear, but you seem completely unaware of it, so instead it’s me bearing it. I don’t think Microsoft are the spawn of Satan. I like Microsoft, and a lot of their products. But strangely, I’m able to distinguish between criticism of a specific feature and hatred of an entire company and all its works. I dunno, my brain just works like that, I guess. It’s what comes of seeing computers as tools, and not extensions of my personality. I’m able to appreciate Apple’s approach to UI consistency (imperfect though it is), I’m able to appreciate Microsoft’s universality, and Linux’s openness and infinite customisability. In recompense, when I make a mild comment about one element of one product of one company, some dickhead jumps down my throat as if I’d pissed on his granny. C’est la vie, I guess. Anyway, this is my last word on the subject; I really can’t believe I’ve gotten suckered into arguing with someone this ineffably thick. Before I go, though, I’ll give you some pointers for your next post. I reckon if you start taking individual words out of my sentences and composing them into completely new ones, you’ll be able to have even more fun than you’ve already had. You should be able to prove that I love Hitler, rape kittens and appreciate the collected works of Michael Bolton. Actually I’ve made it really easy for you by writing that: > [@Dead Badger](#): > > I love Hitler, rape kittens and appreciate the collected works of Michael Bolton. Incriminating stuff; knock yourself out. ---
**Author:** ![unstrung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a698b9/32.png) [@unstrung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unstrung)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/microsoft-spawn-of-satan/467795/50 "2008-10-20T13:02:19Z")
> [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > No, you fucking cretin, overall usability is irrelevant to _whether a specific feature is good or bad_. Saying “autistic kids can use Word” has nothing to do with whether, specifically, the Blob is a good idea or not. No, the Blob is not so bad that it offsets the Ribbon’s improvement, but that still doesn’t make it good. Can’t you understand this? I’ve said it about five times. Are you going to continue ripping my sentences out of context until they cry? Hey, let them cry if they need to. While you are dabbing their cheeks, please point out where I even once said that the blob was a _good_ thing. My point from the beginning has been that overall usability is more important than any one specific element when evaluating a piece of software. > [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > [ul][li]Within the context of Word, I was specifically criticising the Blob.[/li][li]I was using the dialogs (and other things) as an illustration of this criticism.[/ul][/li]If you can’t grasp these mindbogglingly simple points, there is no hope for you. Please continue to post your little bullet points, and I will continue to point out that 1) you did bring up the dialogs as a specific criticism of Word and the rest of the MS Office suite and 2) your “illustration” was incorrect, and as such doesn’t “illustrate” anything regarding the MS Office suite. > [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > And I was not wrong about Office using non-standard API calls. Here is what Office and Notepad look like under XP. [Notepad](http://img374.imageshack.us/my.php?image=notepadopenkw9.gif). [Office](http://img370.imageshack.us/my.php?image=officeopenal2.gif). Yes, they are very similar. No, they are not the same. That’s under XP, which is, y’know, the older operating system. Since that’s not how they look under Vista, then it appears Microsoft recognized that particular issue and took steps to resolve it. So, you are talking about an issue from the past, which makes it pretty friggin’ irrelevant. Moreover, you cheerfully contended that the problem did still exist in Vista, so yes, you were wrong on this point. > [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > And if you look closely at the corresponding ones you linked, they’re not exactly the same either; it appears that they’ve just redesigned the dialog that Office uses under Vista so it looks much more like the common dialog. The only difference I see is that where notepad has an dropdown for the type of encoding, Word and Visio have an dropdown for “tools”, presumably because one has more options when opening those files than just the type of encoding. Media player does not have that dropdown, presumably because you don’t really need any options when opening an MP3/WMA/MPEG/whatever file. I don’t see how this could be seen as inconsistency. “Consistent” and “identical” are not in fact interchangeable terms. > [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > This is a good thing, obviously, but it still doesn’t invalidate the point that Microsoft produces a wide array of programs with a wide array of inconsistent common elements, to which your sole response has been this dribble of piss: I don’t think I’ve ever disagreed that Microsoft has a whole bunch of problems. I’ve pointed out that you were wrong about one issue that you’ve brought up repeatedly. And, big guy, you’ve taken great pains to make sure I knew you were talking specifically about the file dialogs. There’s even a point in the conversation (which I already quoted in a previous post) where you say “I think you’re confused; I’m not talking about the dropdown menus, I’m talking about the file open and save dialog boxes.”. That’s a pretty friggin’ unambiguous statement, genius. Also, you’ve called me “special” for not getting your alleged point about the dialog boxes. You’ve said that trying to explain the problem with the file dialogs (which again, doesn’t exist anymore) is like “trying to teach calculus to your cat”. You’ve made a big deal about the fact that you program Win32 apps and therefore have knowledge about the file dialogs. You’ve thrown a Vista UX Guide into the conversation in a misguided attempt to show how inconsistent the file dialogs are. You have, in short, been an arrogant little prick about the thing. So… yeah, I’m gonna keep bringing up how wrong you were. Now, up to this point, I’ve made sure to include every word you wrote in the above quotes from your last post, because I know you like to pretend that when I simply quote the relevant comment to which I am responding, it somehow invalidates said response. But the rest of your tirade I won’t respond to other than to say that as meltdowns go, that really only gets a C plus. Well, maybe a B minus. Judging from your other posts in this thread, you probably could have done better 😉 ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/microsoft-spawn-of-satan/467795/51 "2008-10-20T14:12:25Z")
I gave up on reading this back-and-forth about 20 posts back, but I just want to say that I agree with the OP. I posted my thoughts in a [pit thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=451583&highlight=Microsoft&page=2) on the subject some months back. My anger at the time basically boiled down to this: After my IT department upgraded me from Office 2003 to 2007 with no notice, I was instantly unable to use the program without having to spend time learning the new product. Even though I have used every MS Word and Excel version that’s been put out for PCs and Macs over the last 20+ years, I was unable to do anything without a help search. Contrast that with previous upgrades of MS Office, Windows, Mac OS, etc. Knowing how to use the previous version, you can still use the new version, picking up the new functionality on the fly. Office 2007, on the other hand, jettisons virtually everything veteran users of the product already knew how to do. Hell, I didn’t realize until just a few days ago that the little arrows at the bottom right corner of _some_ of the ribbon boxes bring up option boxes. I also never would have guessed that the office logo on the upper left brought up a menu. (So what was their reasoning here? Let’s get rid of all of the drop down menus except for this one, which we’ll hide under the program logo! That’ll fool 'em! :rolleyes: ) The program seems consciously designed to piss off veteran users. This is the polar opposite of the AutoCAD products, which has added icons and buttons to the program, yet retained the old command line for veteran users. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/microsoft-spawn-of-satan/467795.md?page=2)