# Mid-air collision at Dallas air show (Breaking news: Nov 12. 2022) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [November 12, 2022, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812 "2022-11-12T21:17:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2022, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/61 "2022-11-13T23:55:32Z")
Part of his point was that the big nose sets the canopy farther back, more over the wing, resulting in a bigger blind spot below the plane. As for does it have a bigger or smaller forward blind spot, he did a visual comparison to another plane, but I am no expert. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/62 "2022-11-14T00:00:18Z")
I think the important point is that _there is a blind spot_ and at least one airplane was in the blind spot of another, regardless of how large those spots are. ---
**Author:** ![txtumbleweed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@txtumbleweed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/txtumbleweed)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/63 "2022-11-14T00:09:48Z")
There will be discussion of the blind spot, but not sure how much difference that made in this case. Pilot is in a left bank so anything to the right is going to be hard to see. Plus, if the pilot was following the preceding fighters, he wasn’t even looking that way. I imagine he was looking, relative to his airplane, up and to the left for the aircraft he was following. Never would have seen the B-17 in that case. With 5 or 6 sets of eyes in the B-17, I bet they saw the collision coming. One guy had to be up in the top turret enjoying the view of all the aircraft in the sky. Probably had time to holler a warning, but they may have well been standing still. B-17 is not exactly nimble. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/64 "2022-11-14T00:14:14Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > Part of his point was that the big nose sets the canopy farther back, more over the wing, resulting in a bigger blind spot below the plane. I know that was part of his point, I just don’t think he’s correct. I found pictures of a P-63 and P-51, and the cockpit is farther forward in the P-63. Seems like it would have less of a blind spot than the Mustang. [https://media.defense.gov/2005/Dec/22/2000574732/-1/-1/0/050216-F-1234P-070.JPG](https://media.defense.gov/2005/Dec/22/2000574732/-1/-1/0/050216-F-1234P-070.JPG) [![](https://www.4aviation.nl/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Jet-Flight-P-51-BE-kop3-4Aviation.jpg) ](https://www.4aviation.nl/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Jet-Flight-P-51-BE-kop3-4Aviation.jpg) > [@Broomstick](#): > > I think the important point is that _there is a blind spot_ and at least one airplane was in the blind spot of another, regardless of how large those spots are. Agreed, but I wouldn’t call out the P-63 as being especially bad in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/65 "2022-11-14T00:27:19Z")
The orange plane looks rather peculiar for a P-63, and checking it out it turns out to be a P-63E which had a different cockpit design than the other variants. The ones with the full canopy, as all almost all other variants had, seem to place the pilot further back and right over the wings. [![](https://preview.redd.it/u0f74b2voax81.jpg?auto=webp&s=a50ceadc0feccb4b15066f8a0659a2ae909e565e) ](https://preview.redd.it/u0f74b2voax81.jpg?auto=webp&s=a50ceadc0feccb4b15066f8a0659a2ae909e565e) ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/66 "2022-11-14T00:32:34Z")
Yes, but it’s still don’t obscure the view any more than the Mustang’s would. That said, whether the nose of the plane contains an engine or guns, you still can’t see through it. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/67 "2022-11-14T00:53:13Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > > [@Maserschmidt](#): > > > > Part of his point was that the big nose sets the canopy farther back, more over the wing, resulting in a bigger blind spot below the plane. > > I know that was part of his point, I just don’t think he’s correct. I found pictures of a P-63 and P-51, and the cockpit is farther forward in the P-63. Seems like it would have less of a blind spot than the Mustang. Well, I already made this before I saw this post. So here it is. [[Album] imgur.com ![](https://i.imgur.com/wX3QSld.png?fb "imgur.com") ](https://imgur.com/a/qvXpPSv) The P-63 pilot is seated forward of the leading edge of the wing. The P-51 pilot sits at the trailing edge. Of course, the P-51D has superior ‘all-around’ visibility with its bubble canopy; but it seems down-and-forward visibility would be less. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/68 "2022-11-14T01:05:40Z")
And the reason the cockpit is the P-63 is more forward of other fighter aircraft is because the engine is behind the cockpit and not in front of it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/69 "2022-11-14T01:28:38Z")
In retrospect, the name of the air show “Wings over Dallas” is going to be haunted by the image of the B-17 wings separated from the fuselage. As for the child who asked if that’s part of the show. He may have been to the Oshkosh airshow where they have pyrotechnic events that are actually greater than this crash. They represent a bombing run which would have a bomber flying over. They’re big enough that you can feel the heat from them when they go off. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/70 "2022-11-14T01:35:46Z")
I don’t think it’s any worse. His comparison to other similar fighters is misplaced in my opinion, but it doesn’t matter as I think the overall point that the B17 would’ve been obscured by the P63’s nose is valid, it’s just that a P51 in the same position would have the same problem. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/71 "2022-11-14T01:54:12Z")
The CAF does a similar display. I remember them being used when I was young, and Dallas notified us that they’d be setting off the unused pyrotechnics today at 2PM. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/72 "2022-11-14T03:41:10Z")
The video mentions the P-63’s and P-39’s poor stall behaviour. That reminded me of this: [[Album] imgur.com ![](https://i.imgur.com/3fx9Fx0.jpeg?fb "imgur.com") ](https://imgur.com/a/5r3QFhM) ‘30 years from now, somebody’ll call this a Frisbee.’ ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/73 "2022-11-14T03:43:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If there were 6 dead then 2 to 3 of them were extra riders on the B-17. I don’t know if a B-17 needs an engineer for flight so I’m not sure how many riders there were. Historically, the B-17 crew was 10, and in the following positions. - Pilot - Copilot - Navigator - Bombardier - Flight Engineer/Top turret gunner - Radio Operator - 2 waist gunners - Ball turret gunner - Tail gunner I’d imagine that they’d still need two pilots and a flight engineer, but I’m not sure what the other two might be doing- pretty much every other position is superfluous these days. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/74 "2022-11-14T04:52:53Z")
So far they’ve only talked about the pilot and copilot. I’m not positive but I don’t think they need an engineer. I suspect they had 3 passengers on the flight. the P-63 would have been a single seat. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/75 "2022-11-14T05:41:49Z")
Iirc they still need a flight engineer to properly “balance” gasoline usage to the engines, I don’t think they can do that from the cockpit. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/76 "2022-11-14T06:34:56Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > > [@Bullitt](#): > > > > From @txtumbleweed ’s post above, one of the videos shows an angle which to me looks like the P-63 pilot has clear line of sight to the B-17. > > I think not. > > The structure of the airplane, the location of its wings, and the interior of its cockpit means the P-63 has a massive blind spot below the airplane and at least partial obscuring of the view ahead of it. I now agree with you. Visibility from a P-63 cockpit is pretty poor. > [@Broomstick](#): > > > [@Bullitt](#): > > > > Can someone explain what is meant by, from @scabpicker ‘s NPR article, that the P-63 pilot went “belly up to the leader”? > > He approached the other plane from a direction and angle that put the B-17 into his blind spot so he could not see the airplane he was approaching. Airplanes have blindspots, just like your car does. Makes sense. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/77 "2022-11-14T06:44:35Z")
> [@txtumbleweed](#): > > CAF has been doing these for some 40 years (most famous is the Tora Tora Tora recreation of Pearl Harbor) and this is the first accident (I think, I don’t see any others noted on wiki) ) at one of their shows A CAF He-111 [crashed on take-off](http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=93788ac9-1b2c-4472-a5ff-1c8dc9b08249) in 2003 but it wasn’t performing, but rather leaving for the next show. ---
**Author:** ![txtumbleweed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@txtumbleweed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/txtumbleweed)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/78 "2022-11-14T13:59:01Z")
I remember the loss of the CASA 2.111 / HE111 as it was the only flying example. According to the NTSB, they were on approach and lost power on one engine, then the pilot lost directional control. Basically, yup, they crashed, but we don’t really know why. It could have been a stall/spin as he tried to pull up, but I suspect in this case (and in the loss of the B-17 “909”) was how little directional control there can be in these old aircraft when you lose an engine and then have to go full power on the other side. There is going to be big yaw and torque which can easily overcome the ability of the rudder to manage it. (When 909 tried to go around, they would have put power on the left side and that seems to be when the aircraft immediately swung hard into the dead engines on the right.) By all accounts, it takes a lot of muscle power on the rudder when you lose power on one side and there is no real way to practice that. It could easily surprise a pilot used to powered controls that you suddenly need to put 100-lbs or more of force on the human powered rudder pedal to just go straight. That may have been the case in the CASA. [From the NTSB report](https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/15/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20030714X01087&key=1): > According to the Airplane Flight Manual, “Maximum power will probably be required to maintain flight with one engine inoperative. Maximum power at slow air speed may cause loss of directional control.” ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/79 "2022-11-14T14:24:17Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > A CAF He-111 [crashed on take-off](http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=93788ac9-1b2c-4472-a5ff-1c8dc9b08249) in 2003 but it wasn’t performing, but rather leaving for the next show. So that’s what happened to that one. I toured it here at the Mesa CAF. It was kind of neat mishmash. Since it served in the Spanish Civil War, some of the instrument were in Spanish, some in German, and some in English. And it has Rolls Royce engines. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/80 "2022-11-14T15:17:15Z")
Yeah, shifting fuel around various tanks is definitely a flight engineer task. That’s one of the things I remember my grandfather specifically telling me he did as a B-17 flight engineer (the tanks got shot up and were leaking), along with monitoring and advising of the pilots as to the engine status. That, and arming the bombs! Otherwise, the flight engineer was basically an all-purpose flying mechanic able to fix anything they could reach from within the plane during flight. Machine guns, bomb racks, radios, cables, etc… I would imagine that an old plane like that probably had a flight engineer on board just by virtue of its age and its nature as a machine that took several people to fly it as designed. I’m still not sure who the other two crewmen might have been - spotters for formation flying or something? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812.md?page=5)