# Mid-air collision at Dallas air show (Breaking news: Nov 12. 2022) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [November 12, 2022, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812 "2022-11-12T21:17:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/81 "2022-11-14T15:27:55Z")
Isn’t the lack of visibility just the reason the fighter pilot didn’t see the accident coming? The real reason for the accident was that he was flying too fast to bank that turn and flew wide. Pilot error; not aircraft design. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/82 "2022-11-14T15:30:57Z")
> [@chela](#): > > What were they expecting, a battle re-enactment? Quite possibly. Battle reenactments are a standard part of air shows, complete with bombing “attacks” with explosions going off on the ground. The CAF does them as part of their show. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/83 "2022-11-14T15:41:23Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Pilot error; not aircraft design. Right? There didn’t appear to be anything wrong with the aircraft. In my opinion the problem occurred at the interface between the seat and the joystick. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/84 "2022-11-14T15:41:59Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’m still not sure who the other two crewmen might have been - spotters for formation flying or something? I read that a crew of four or five is normal, but I couldn’t find anything listing what their positions were. I’m guessing pilot, co-pilot, engineer, navigator, and radio operator, but that’s just a guess. > [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > The real reason for the accident was that he was flying too fast to bank that turn and flew wide. I’m not sure about that. In one of the videos it looks like there are several P63’s flying in formation and the accident aircraft was the one on the end of the formation. If he was following in formation then he might have been right where he was supposed to be relative to the flight leader. > [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Pilot error; not aircraft design. Right? Basically. Aircraft design factors into it in the sense that the P63 pilot had no way of seeing the accident coming until it was too late. I don’t know if it was pilot error, but someone fucked up. Maybe the pilot took the turn too wide. Maybe the flight leader of the P63 formation had them out of position. Maybe the B-17 wasn’t where it should have been. Maybe whoever was coordinating the show placed the P63s and the B17 too close together. Maybe it’s some combination of of these and maybe some other factors that I’m not aware of. Aircraft accidents often follow the “swiss cheese” model where it’s a combination of things that have to line up in a row (like holes in swiss cheese, hence the name) for the accident to happen. I wouldn’t be so quick to blame it on the pilot, but it’s almost certainly human error of some sort. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/85 "2022-11-14T15:45:42Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > If he was following in formation then he might have been right where he was supposed to be relative to the flight leader. I thought he was in formation with the other fighters (Mustangs?) that made the turn well to the left of the B-17. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/86 "2022-11-14T16:08:33Z")
Were they mustangs? I couldn’t tell from the video. The other planes in the formation turned well to the left of the B-17, but the accident aircraft was the one furthest on the right. I couldn’t tell from the video exactly what his position was relative to the others in the formation once the turn started. It looks to my untrained eye like he took the turn too wide, but I think it’s a bit premature to state that as a fact without being able to see the entire picture and the movements of the entire formation. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/87 "2022-11-14T16:11:38Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > I wouldn’t be so quick to blame it on the pilot, but it’s almost certainly human error of some sort. At the end of the day, unless the plane physically malfunctioned right before the collision in a way that made it uncontrollable, it’s going to be pilot error. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/88 "2022-11-14T16:27:00Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > unless the plane physically malfunctioned right before the collision in a way that made it uncontrollable, it’s going to be pilot error Even if it ends up that the air show coordinator placed the formation flight and the B-17 too close together in such a way that it was impossible for the P63 pilot to see the B-17? Is that still the pilot’s fault or is it the air show coordinator’s fault? The B-17 looked like it was making a bit of a left turn. What if he wasn’t anywhere near where he was supposed to be? Is it still the P63 pilot’s fault when he couldn’t possibly see the B-17 or know that it was out of position? I’m not saying that either of these happened, I’m just saying that you shouldn’t be so quick to put all of the blame on the pilot. He may actually be at fault here but I think it’s too early to say so, especially with how little information we have to work with. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/89 "2022-11-14T16:51:13Z")
Yes, even if all of the above turns out to be true, it is still the aviator’s responsibility to see and avoid hitting other aircraft, and that’s the way the NTSB will rule it. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/90 "2022-11-14T17:00:05Z")
Here’s a list of the people who died: > **[What we know about the victims of the Dallas air show crash](https://www.fox4news.com/news/dallas-air-show-crash-victims-terry-barker-craig-hutain-kevin-michels-dan-ragan-leonard-root-curt-rowe)** > > The Commemorative Air Force released all six names of the people killed in a mid-air crash at the annual Wings Over Dallas Air Show on Saturday. Craig Hutain who piloted the P-63 was not an unskilled amateur: > Presently flying as a Captain in the B-777 for United Airlines, based out of Houston, TX > Currently has over 34,500 hours of flight time in over 100 types of aircraft. [https://www.toratoratora.com/pilots-bio/craig-hutain](https://www.toratoratora.com/pilots-bio/craig-hutain) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/rtPfj3OsZYY/maxresdefault.jpg "AirVenture Interviews, Warbird Pilot Craig Hutain") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtPfj3OsZYY) ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/91 "2022-11-14T17:02:26Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > > [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > > > Pilot error; not aircraft design. Right? > > There didn’t appear to be anything wrong with the aircraft. In my opinion the problem occurred at the interface between the seat and the joystick. There is another possible contributing factor. I’m not sure what the appropriate aeronautical term would be, but here I am referring to the operational planning aspects of this event. Was the plan from the beginning to have a B-17 flying in at low altitude at the same time fighters were parading around and pulling turns in the area? Was the B-17 too early? Too late? Were the fighters? Was the B-17 supposed to be at a higher altitude, such that it would have been more visible to fighters operating at low altitude? Should it have been? If the fighters and the bombers were always supposed to be passing in front of the crowd at the same time and the altitude just _had_ to be low for all involved for “reasons,” could there have been more lateral separation between the slow and lumbering bombers relative to the higher performance fighters with huge blind spots for the sole crew member? Sometimes accidents happen because people don’t adhere to basic safety guidelines or to planned safety measures. Other accidents happen because shit breaks and no amount of prior planning or skill could have prevented disaster (but then again, sometimes things break, and a disaster could have been averted if crew had responded properly in the time allotted, but they didn’t–anyway, I don’t see this particular incident as being the “mechanical failure” sort of mishap since nothing seemed to be out of control or falling out of the sky _until the planes collided_). But other times, either on their own or as a contributing factor, the plan itself is flawed, setting up an environment for an accident waiting to happen. Was this such a plan? ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/92 "2022-11-14T17:08:28Z")
One thing I’ve read a couple of places (those places being different subreddits, so grain of salt and all that) was that the weather there had been poor all week and many/most/all of the practice sessions had been cancelled. ---
**Author:** ![txtumbleweed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@txtumbleweed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/txtumbleweed)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/93 "2022-11-14T18:15:16Z")
Not even sure if I should post this link so I’ll spoiler because these photos are pretty devastating and give an idea of the tremendous forces in play. Fortunately, I don’t think you can see any of the crew. A photographer was taking high resolution shots of the airshow and just happened to catch the moment of impact and split seconds thereafter. You can clearly see both aircraft coming apart. I thought the P-63 had gone cleanly through the tail at the trailing edge, but it also removed just about the entire top half of the cockpit area from the radio operator’s compartment to the windscreen. [Crash Sequence - Pictures: Open Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review (dpreview.com)](https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/66619360?image=0) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/94 "2022-11-14T18:24:34Z")
Looks like the P-63 hit just about dead amidships while coming down in a 15-20 degree descent versus the B-17’s path and diagonally from the B-17’s left aft to right forward quadrant. Just about nailed the center of the cross formed by the fuselage & wings, and entered a bit above the horizontal midplane of the fuselage. No surprise the B-17 basically shattered at that point in the mishap sequence. As did the front half of the P-63. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/95 "2022-11-14T18:37:46Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > Were they mustangs? I couldn’t tell from the video. Yeah, they were mustangs. I believe the same two were circling over my neighborhood right after the crash. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/96 "2022-11-14T18:40:30Z")
> [@txtumbleweed](#): > > Not even sure if I should post this link so I’ll spoiler because these photos are pretty devastating and give an idea of the tremendous forces in play. Fortunately, I don’t think you can see any of the crew. Thank you for both posting that AND observing the “two-click” rule. They are interesting, but not everyone wants to see that. No, not gory. But pretty devastating. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/97 "2022-11-14T19:14:25Z")
Ok, please be patient with me. I watched that loop of the mid-air collision at least 20 times, and I can’t understand why the P-63 coming in from the rear could not plainly see the oncoming disaster and alter his course in time. The P-63 had unimpeded vision. It’s not like they were jets whooshing past one another at a harrowingly close distance. In fact, the speeds were relatively sedate for airplanes. Maybe what I think I’m seeing is an optical illusion? ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/98 "2022-11-14T19:20:31Z")
One of the links above has a video explaining how bad the pilot’s visibility is while inside the cockpit of a P-63. There are lots of blind spots. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/99 "2022-11-14T19:23:41Z")
There are blind spots in vehicles. Probably you have noticed that when a vehicle is passing you on the left there is a certain point you can’t see it either in the mirror or out of your left eye. See previous posts as to what the cockpit of the P–63 looks like. Remember he was above the bomber. So either the nose or the floor or the wing of the plane prevented the pilot from seeing the bomber. ---
**Author:** ![txtumbleweed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@txtumbleweed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/txtumbleweed)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/100 "2022-11-14T19:26:18Z")
Plus, the P-63 pilot may never have even looked that way. Once in the bank, he would have been looking to his left trying to track the P-51 he was following through the circuit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812.md?page=6)