# Mid-air collision at Dallas air show (Breaking news: Nov 12. 2022) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [November 12, 2022, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812 "2022-11-12T21:17:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![txtumbleweed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@txtumbleweed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/txtumbleweed)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2022, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/141 "2022-11-30T23:51:18Z")
[NTSB preliminary report is available.](https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/106276/pdf) The P-63 was the third aircraft in the fighter formation The B-17 was lead ship in a 5 bomber formation Not much new information, but this rather sparse paragraph might give an inkling as to what was going on in the air just prior to the accident: > According to the recorded audio for the airshow radio transmissions and Automatic > Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) data, the air boss directed both formations to > maneuver southwest of the runway before returning to the flying display area, which was the > designated performance area. He directed the fighter formation to transition to a trail > formation, fly in front of the bomber formation, and proceed near the 500 ft show line. The > bombers were directed to fly down the 1,000 ft show line. The 500 ft show line and 1,000 ft > show line were 500 ft and 1,000 ft respectively from the airshow viewing line behind which the > audience viewed the airshow. > There were no altitude deconflictions briefed before the flight or while the airplanes were in the > air. Sounds like the air boss instructed the fighters to break out of their formation into trail and make a pass 500ft from the crowd. To do this, at least from what the ADS-B data seems to show, meant the fighters would have to cross in front of the bomber parade that was going to pass 1000ft from the crowd line. The fighters would be out in front and 500ft to the right of the bombers’ paths. In that case, the video evidence seems to show the P-63 was in a turn to do just that, come out on a track to right of the bomber parade as instructed. Disappointing they don’t give the altitudes briefed, but I suspect “no altitude deconflictions briefed” is doing a lot of work here. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2022, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/142 "2022-12-01T00:23:18Z")
> [@txtumbleweed](#): > > but I suspect “no altitude deconflictions briefed” is doing a lot of work here. Indeed. It quietly conveys “but there damn well should have.” ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2022, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/143 "2022-12-01T02:47:21Z")
So the P-63 was the last guy of the passing formation and the B-17 was the first guy of the formation being passed. And they had to cross paths laterally from their holding areas to take their paces along the show line. And nobody was thinking about altitude deconfliction. Talk about a set-up to screw up. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2022, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/144 "2022-12-01T04:39:22Z")
I don’t think that preliminary report was well worded. It says the fighters were to fly in front of the bombers and I take that to mean on the inside track as viewed from crowd. What it doesn’t really say is how they made the transitional turn. Both groups of planes should have been on distinctly different tracks in both transition and crowd pass. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2022, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/145 "2022-12-01T11:29:25Z")
Perhaps the exact ambiguity you point out was what the Air Boss said on the radio. Which led to the two groups of airplanes taking differing interpretations. Yes, there certainly _should_ have been a better deconfliction plan. That’s trivial. What’s interesting / informative / food for thought is what really happened, why it happened, and what specific changes to make to avoid that specific pitfall in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2022, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/146 "2022-12-03T04:10:35Z")
I would expect the bombers to extend out their downwind leg so the base/final turn are WAY away from the fighter pattern. but if the fighter doesn’t turn on the correct final leg than the same thing is going to happen if the altitudes are the same. ---
**Author:** ![txtumbleweed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@txtumbleweed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/txtumbleweed)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/147 "2023-01-13T04:56:39Z")
The Dallas Morning News has posted audio from the show on their site, I don’t think it is paywalled, but I didn’t find any other source with a copy. Looks like DMN simply requested a copy from the FAA. It’s a full 36 minutes, but they’ve edited that to about 2 minutes of audio. [Air Boss - Air Traffic Audio](https://audioboom.com/posts/8228690-audio-air-traffic-control-recording-chronicles-deadly-wings-over-dallas-air-show-crash) Nothing terribly revealing, it details out what the preliminary report summarized. It picks up as the aircraft just passed down runway 13 and are turning out to the west before making a sweeping left turn to come back down RWY 31. The air boss asks the B-17 for a wide flat turn and to come down the 1000’ line as he is going to roll the fighters back in front of them. He asks the fighter lead to come left and get in a trail formation. The lead fighter has the B-17 in sight and is told to get in front of the bombers and make a pass along the outside edge of the runway (the 500’ line). Air boss tells the fighters nice job, that will work out, and the B-17 says it has them in sight in front and off to the left. _speculating here, the P-63, the third fighter in the line, is still getting separation for trail and may have fallen a bit further behind. Still, he’s in the hard left turn, maybe looking for the other two fighters, and likely figures he is clear of everyone as the air boss has said to come through and the B-17 has said it has the fighters in sight._ The air boss tells the fighters again, nice job and come on through and then to pull up hard and right, probably as the lead fighter was coming up on the other end of the runway and needed to break out to the staging area to the northeast of the airport. The next call is “knock it off.” I guess what strikes me, and it will be interesting to see how things were actually briefed, that the air boss is crisscrossing the two formations that way at the same altitude. Probably made worse by the fighters having to break into trail which would increase the size of their formation and how long it would take to clear the bombers’ path. There’s also no concern from the bomber or air boss about the fighters’ positions. At no time does the air boss recognize that the third fighter is not where he is expects it to be and the bomber crew never seems to realize a fighter they should have seen go by hadn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/148 "2023-01-14T00:56:14Z")
> [@txtumbleweed](#): > > The next call is “knock it off.” I’ve never heard that used as an aviation term. It doesn’t make any sense. There should have been post accident staging instructions. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/149 "2023-01-14T01:15:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’ve never heard that used as an aviation term. It doesn’t make any sense. There should have been post accident staging instructions. [Common phrase in military aviation.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiservice_tactical_brevity_code#K) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/150 "2023-01-14T01:38:39Z")
> [@Llama\_Llogophile](#): > > Common phrase in military aviation. Which reminded me of… [[Album] imgur.com ![](https://i.imgur.com/8golKXQ.jpeg?fb "imgur.com") ](https://imgur.com/a/TUVJA15) Obviously, someone has replaced some text; but that’s the cartoon. ---
**Author:** ![txtumbleweed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@txtumbleweed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/txtumbleweed)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2024, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/151 "2024-03-29T00:54:36Z")
[NTSB released the accident docket today, the final report probably isn’t far behind.](https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket?ProjectID=106276) [The air boss interview is 232 pages.](https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Document/docBLOB?ID=16508623&FileExtension=pdf&FileName=Operational%20Factors%20-%20Attachment%202%20-%20Airboss%20and%20Observer%20Air%20Boss%20Summaries%20and%20Transcripts_Redacted-Rel.pdf) I suspect the final report will come down hard on the air boss with a bit of room on complacency among the pilots involved (ie, why did they leave the briefing with a plan that sounded like they were going to making it up mostly on the, er… fly). ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2025, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812/152 "2025-05-12T17:32:03Z")
Updates: From the NTSB: Summary: **In-Flight Collision During Air Show, Commemorative Air Force Boeing B-17G, N7227C, and Bell P-63F, N6763** > **[CEN23MA034.aspx](https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Pages/CEN23MA034.aspx)** Final report: **Aviation Investigation Report AIR-24-07: In-Flight Collision During Air Show Commemorative Air Force Boeing B-17G, N7227C, and Bell P-63F, N6763 Dallas, Texas November 12, 2022** > **[AIR-24-07.pdf](https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AIR-24-07.pdf)** > > 3.35 MB Admiral Cloudberg analysis: > **[Passing the Buck: The story of the 2022 Wings Over Dallas air show collision](https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/passing-the-buck-the-story-of-the-2022-wings-over-dallas-air-show-collision-9bbe5947297b)** > > How unsafe practices in the air show industry caused the deaths of six crewmembers and the loss of two iconic aircraft. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mid-air-collision-at-dallas-air-show-breaking-news-nov-12-2022/974812.md?page=7)