# Middle Earth 2nd Age Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 19, 2006, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/middle-earth-2nd-age-question/373332 "2006-09-19T21:11:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![The\_Eater\_in\_the\_Round](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/71c47a/32.png) [@The\_Eater\_in\_the\_Round](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Eater_in_the_Round)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/middle-earth-2nd-age-question/373332/1 "2006-09-19T21:11:20Z")
Help me better understand this part of 2nd age timeline: In the 2nd age Sauron was living on Numenor after being taken prisioner by the Numenorians. And he slys his way into a position of favor with King Ar-pharazon and helps put in motion the attempted invasion on the undying lands. The coup doesn’t work and the Valar destroy Numenor. Now Sauron gets destroyed along with the island at this point, or perhaps he was with the contingent of Edain who sailed in force against the Undying Lands, either way he gets wasted. Now since Sauron’s soul is bound up in the One Ring he created some 1500 years before, his soul or spirit can live on, and he returns some time later to try and finish off the elves and what is left of the Edain. OK, so here is my question: Where was the One Ring during all of this? Presumably Sauron was wearing the ring when Ar-pharazon took him prisoner. It seems that I have read that the power of the ring was one of the tools Sauron used to corrupt Ar-pharazon. So when Numenor is sunk and the shape of the world is altered and Sauron’s body gets destroyed wouldn’t the ring have been lost? Or did Sauron hide the ring for 60 or so years somewhere in Barad-dur, hoping that no one would take it? Would he have done this? Can some Tolkien expert help me figure out this conundrum? ---
**Author:** ![RenMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecb155/32.png) [@RenMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RenMan)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/middle-earth-2nd-age-question/373332/2 "2006-09-19T22:07:23Z")
I don’t have the books in front of me for a cite, unfortunately, but here goes: **Where was Sauron?** In Armenelos, the capital of Numenor, I believe. He was caught in the deluge when the island sank. **Where was the One Ring?** Sauron had it with him. The book isn’t crystal clear, but what happened is: Sauron lost his physical form, but his spirit had the force of will (or something) to carry the Ring over the sea back to Middle-Earth. Later, he must have gotten his physical form back because he had a finger for Isildur to chop off. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/middle-earth-2nd-age-question/373332/3 "2006-09-19T22:33:25Z")
What **RenMan** said. From FAQ of the Rings:[FAQ of the Rings](http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q1-Numenor) > [@](#): > > E7. Where was the One Ring while Sauron was in Númenor? > (last revised 12 Oct 2002 ) > > On his finger. “He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans.” [L #211 (279)] > > Tolkien’s very clear statement agrees with the logic of Sauron’s character. Sauron had two choices: take the ring with him to Númenor, or leave it in Middle-earth. But nowhere there would be safe, from his point of view: while he spent decades in Númenor, anyone might have found the Ring and claimed it. Sauron would never risk that. > > Some people are misled by Tolkien’s statement that Sauron “took up again” the Ring after making himself a new body [Silm: Rings (292)]. All that means is that he first completed the new body, then turned again to his plans for world domination. Steuard Jensen has written on this topic; see “Where was the Ring when Númenor was destroyed?” (If that link doesn’t work, look for that question in his Tolkien newsgroups FAQs.) > > See also: How did Sauron get the One Ring back to Middle-earth after his body was drowned with the Númenóreans? ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/middle-earth-2nd-age-question/373332/4 "2006-09-20T02:24:31Z")
**SAURON:** Of course, it goes without saying that if you’re going to invest the lion’s share of your vital force into a crafted artifact, then you’re going to want to consider some extra security features. Now obviously I’d made the Ring itself indestructible to blunt physical damage, so the only real concern was the temperature problem. I mean, the only way you’d ever even risk a critical failure like that would be through prolonged immersion in asthenospheric-intensity heat levels. But you’d be surprised how often that happens in my line of work. _(laughs)_ Murphy’s Law, and all that. Of course it doesn’t exactly help if you live next to an active volcano. Anyway, I’d devised the original Ring casing to partially address this concern. When I wasn’t actually wearing the thing, I’d designed a special protective housing chamber for it, consisting of a central armature of heat-resistant _galvorn_-ceramic composite surrounded by eight ultraminiaturized, microvernier-controlled scramjets, insulated with thermal-ablative _mithril_ silicate foam. The entire assembly was intended to lift the Ring out of harm’s way in the event of a sudden magma flow or something. Of course I never expected to have to use it to escape Numenor. \* (laughs) \* Yeah, I never really solved the miniaturization issue completely. It was designed to be worn around the neck like jewelry, but it was still pretty bulky. _(laughs)_ I told ar-Pharazon that it was an asthma inhaler. He was never the sharpest knife in the drawer. –excerpted from \*Pimped-out Relics! \* Episode 203; Featured Guest: Sauron Annatar; Broadcast Date: 18 Jun 2002 (_TechTV_) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/middle-earth-2nd-age-question/373332/5 "2006-09-20T03:11:57Z")
From the Silmarillion > [@](#): > > For Sauron himself was filled with great fear at the wrath of the Valar, and the doom that Eru laid upon sea and land. It was greater far than aught he had looked for, hoping only for the death of the Númenóreans and the defeat of their proud king. And Sauron, sitting in his black seat in the midst of the Temple, had laughed when he heard the trumpets of Ar-Pharazôn sounding for battle; and again he had laughed when he heard the thunder of the storm; and a third time, even as he laughed at his own thought, thinking what he would do now in the world, being rid of the Edain for ever, he was taken in the midst of his mirth, and his seat and his temple fell into the abyss. **But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure.** Is this the passage you are refering to **QtM**? It does seem to imply the ring was left behind in Barad-dûr. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/middle-earth-2nd-age-question/373332/6 "2006-09-20T03:20:31Z")
I believe he used the Ring’s innate powers to turn it invisible, or, alternately, to subtly influence Ar-Pharazon not to think of confiscating it. When Elenna was destroyed, Sauron’s physical body was killed but his spirit remained puissant enough to carry the ring back with it to Middle-Earth by means of sheer willpower. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/middle-earth-2nd-age-question/373332/7 "2006-09-20T03:34:30Z")
One of the most distracting things about Ralph Bakshi’s \*\*The Silmarillion \*\* was how the One Ring flying back to Middle-earth used the exact same sound effect as George Jetson’s car. ---
**Author:** ![Arien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Arien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arien)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/middle-earth-2nd-age-question/373332/8 "2006-09-20T16:01:16Z")
[QUOTE=Terrifel] One of the most distracting things about Ralph Bakshi’s \*\*The Silmarillion \*\* was how the One Ring flying back to Middle-earth used the exact same sound effect as George Jetson’s car. [/QUOTE] You crack me up, **Terrifel**. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/middle-earth-2nd-age-question/373332/9 "2006-09-20T16:34:10Z")
So after the seige of Barad-dur, when Sauron’s body was slain and the One Ring cut from his hand, what stopped Sauron from reclaiming the One Ring then? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Eater\_in\_the\_Round](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/71c47a/32.png) [@The\_Eater\_in\_the\_Round](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Eater_in_the_Round)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/middle-earth-2nd-age-question/373332/10 "2006-09-20T20:12:23Z")
Thanks for the factual answers everyone. Now on to speculation. [QUOTE=Lumpy] So after the seige of Barad-dur, when Sauron’s body was slain and the One Ring cut from his hand, what stopped Sauron from reclaiming the One Ring then? [/QUOTE] That is actually a good question. After Isildur is slain the ring sits at the bottom of a pond for 400 years. If Sauron had the power to carry the ring around after his first physical demise why couldn’t he have just floated over to that pond and picked up the ring? Is it that he doesen’t know where it is? Is Sauron less powerful in the Third Age than he was in the Second Age? It’s so fuzzy. If Sauron floated the ring over an ocean and a continent after his body was destroyed at Armenelos, then why would he not have just floated the ring off the battlefield after Isildur cut it off? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/middle-earth-2nd-age-question/373332/11 "2006-09-20T20:18:40Z")
[QUOTE=The Eater in the Round] Thanks for the factual answers everyone. Now on to speculation. That is actually a good question. After Isildur is slain the ring sits at the bottom of a pond for 400 years. If Sauron had the power to carry the ring around after his first physical demise why couldn’t he have just floated over to that pond and picked up the ring? Is it that he doesen’t know where it is? Is Sauron less powerful in the Third Age than he was in the Second Age? It’s so fuzzy. If Sauron floated the ring over an ocean and a continent after his body was destroyed at Armenelos, then why would he not have just floated the ring off the battlefield after Isildur cut it off? [/QUOTE] Sauron was weaker in the third age. Additionally, I have seen no cites that say Sauron had the Ring in Numenor. Actually the first I have ever seen that was this thread. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/middle-earth-2nd-age-question/373332/12 "2006-09-20T22:48:46Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] Sauron was weaker in the third age. Additionally, I have seen no cites that say Sauron had the Ring in Numenor. Actually the first I have ever seen that was this thread. Jim [/QUOTE] So what’s the letter from JRRT then, chopped liver? > [@](#): > > “He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans.” [Letters from JRRT #211] As for Sauron: He was _not_ separated from the ring during the downfall of Numenor. His body just was destroyed, a minor inconvenience. But at the end of the Siege of Barad Dur, he was _thrown down_ by the combined might of Gil-Galad and Elendil (tho they both perished in the throwing down) and then he was physically separated from the ring, source of most of his power, and hence tremendously diminished. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/middle-earth-2nd-age-question/373332/13 "2006-09-20T22:53:12Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] From the Silmarillion Is this the passage you are refering to **QtM**? It does seem to imply the ring was left behind in Barad-dûr. [/QUOTE] If the FAQ of the Rings isn’t enough for you, then try this link, Jim. It quotes Letter #211 further. [Tolkien Newsgroups FAQ: Story Internal Discussions: History and Happenings](http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/History.html#RingNumenor) > [@](#): > > “Though reduced to ‘a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind’, I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.” ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/middle-earth-2nd-age-question/373332/14 "2006-09-20T23:04:35Z")
[QUOTE=Arien] You crack me up, **Terrifel**. [/QUOTE] 🙂 Thanks! For lo, such was indeed my plan. I crave attention, is all. Before I encountered the internet, there were exactly zero people in my circle of associates who actually understood things I said, about LOTR or anything else. Now there’s like three or four people who not only get my jokes but are even occasionally amused by them. I love you all. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/middle-earth-2nd-age-question/373332/15 "2006-09-20T23:36:17Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] If the FAQ of the Rings isn’t enough for you, then try this link, Jim. It quotes Letter #211 further. [Tolkien Newsgroups FAQ: Story Internal Discussions: History and Happenings](http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/History.html#RingNumenor) [/QUOTE] Excellent, I accept your very good cite. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/middle-earth-2nd-age-question/373332/16 "2006-09-21T00:09:07Z")
[QUOTE=Terrifel] 🙂 Thanks! For lo, such was indeed my plan. I crave attention, is all. Before I encountered the internet, there were exactly zero people in my circle of associates who actually understood things I said, about LOTR or anything else. Now there’s like three or four people who not only get my jokes but are even occasionally amused by them. I love you all. 🙂 [/QUOTE] I know what you mean. Only here could I post about Radagast being Eru’s chief agent in the defense against Melkor’s attack on the nitrogen fixation cycle in Ainulindalë and not get 100% blank looks. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Caridwen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@Caridwen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caridwen)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/middle-earth-2nd-age-question/373332/17 "2006-09-21T00:29:26Z")
I hope you don’t mind a LOTR question- What book would you recommend after the LOTR trilogy? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/middle-earth-2nd-age-question/373332/18 "2006-09-21T00:40:42Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] I know what you mean. Only here could I post about Radagast being Eru’s chief agent in the defense against Melkor’s attack on the nitrogen fixation cycle in Ainulindalë and not get 100% blank looks. 😉 [/QUOTE] That is an excellent point, I always felt that the ents underestimated the drive of the entwives to try an minimize soil erosion as per Yavanna’s & Eru’s wishes. 😉 [QUOTE=Caridwen] I hope you don’t mind a LOTR question- What book would you recommend after the LOTR trilogy? [/QUOTE] This group never minds a LOTR question. If you have not read the Hobbit, that should be the next. If you have, find Smith Wootton Major and Farmer Giles of Ham. Great pair of light hearted stories by the master of Fantasy. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Caridwen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@Caridwen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caridwen)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/middle-earth-2nd-age-question/373332/19 "2006-09-21T00:53:17Z")
Thank you! I was ready to order The Silmarillion but I’ll take your suggestion. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/middle-earth-2nd-age-question/373332/20 "2006-09-21T01:03:03Z")
[QUOTE=Caridwen] Thank you! I was ready to order The Silmarillion but I’ll take your suggestion. [/QUOTE] When you are ready to undertake The Sil, make sure you have a copy of [The Atlas of Middle-Earth](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Atlas_of_Middle-earth) alongside you. Only by following the thematic maps did I start making more rapid sense out of what the hell was going on. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/middle-earth-2nd-age-question/373332.md?page=2)