# Midnight Cowboy - How soon they forget **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 28, 2002, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midnight-cowboy-how-soon-they-forget/100524 "2002-03-28T06:00:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2002, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midnight-cowboy-how-soon-they-forget/100524/1 "2002-03-28T06:00:32Z")
In [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=105613), a number of posters vilify the 1969 masterpiece known as **Midnight Cowboy**. Can they be serious? Has any film ever contained better acting? How many films have had two actors nominated for best actor, and another as best supporting actress? Has there _ever_ been a finer personification than Dustin Hoffman as Rico Ratso? How many other movie characters have entered the collective consciousness to the degree that Ratso did? Jeez, even the soundtrack has become a type of musical icon. Before Midnight Cowboy, how many “Hollywood” films even considered, let alone explored, the world of male prostitution? Homosexuality? Drug use? Seediness itself? We may take these subjects as commonplace nowadays, but Midnight Cowboy was the groundbreaker. How many films before Midnight Cowboy chronicled the “anti-hero”? Today, we take such a perspective for granted. Often we expect it. But before Midnight Cowboy? Midnight Cowboy captured Oscars for best picture, best director, and best writing. And, as mentioned above, three of its stars were nominated for their acting. Other organizations (eg. film critics, directors’ groups, etc.) were similarly forthcoming in their [recognition of the film’s excellence](http://us.imdb.com/Tawards?0064665). Can so many groups have been so misguided? I cannot understand why some of the most rational denizens of the SDMB feel compelled to put down this great film. Maybe familiarity (?filmiliarity) breeds contempt. Maybe it’s a form of cinematic revisionism. I know this is _Cafe Society_ and not _Great Debates_, but I could not let this attack on one of my all-time favourite movies, and, IMO, one of the all-time greatest movies, go unchallenged. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2002, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midnight-cowboy-how-soon-they-forget/100524/2 "2002-03-28T07:26:53Z")
I agree. It’s one of the great American films of all time. But damn, it’s hard to watch. Depressing from beginning to end. ---
**Author:** ![Sylkyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/da6949/32.png) [@Sylkyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylkyn)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2002, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midnight-cowboy-how-soon-they-forget/100524/3 "2002-03-28T07:36:29Z")
No debate from me, either. I consider it a cinema masterpiece. I wish I had a nickel for every time I’ve seen it. I could have retired by now. Just seeing the name in this thread made me miss the L. S… uh, I mean…things that made up the sixties. Fabulous acting. Fabulous cinematography. Sooooo controversial…for its time. “Midnight Cowboy”, in my opinion, was the prototype for all mold-breaking movies of today. And by the way, his name was _ **RIZZO** _!!! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2002, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midnight-cowboy-how-soon-they-forget/100524/4 "2002-03-28T12:56:10Z")
If you watch closely, you’ll pick out the actor who played in Close Encounters of the Third Kind (scientist), Absent Malice (the weasly DA), and Mr. Dalyrimple (the head of programming of NBC that Jerry and George pitch their show idea to on Seinfeld). In Midnight Cowboy, he pays Joe Buck $10 in the movie theater to let him give him head. Then he throws up in the bathroom. ---
**Author:** ![Odieman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a87d85/32.png) [@Odieman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odieman)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2002, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midnight-cowboy-how-soon-they-forget/100524/5 "2002-03-28T13:44:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SilkyThreat \* > \*\* > > And by the way, his name was _ **RIZZO** _!!! 😉 \*\* And Rizzo the Rat on the Muppet show was named after the character. Keith ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2002, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midnight-cowboy-how-soon-they-forget/100524/6 "2002-03-28T14:44:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by plnnr \* > \*\*If you watch closely, you’ll pick out the actor who played in Close Encounters of the Third Kind (scientist), Absent Malice (the weasly DA), and Mr. Dalyrimple (the head of programming of NBC that Jerry and George pitch their show idea to on Seinfeld). In Midnight Cowboy, he pays Joe Buck $10 in the movie theater to let him give him head. Then he throws up in the bathroom. \*\* His name is Bob Balaban and he also plays Morris Weissman in _Gosford Park_. He also received an Academy nomination for producing that film. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2002, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midnight-cowboy-how-soon-they-forget/100524/7 "2002-03-28T18:31:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SilkyThreat \* > **And by the way, his name was _RIZZO_!!!** I believe his name was Rico. I was probably a bit young for this movie when I first saw it, edited for broadcast on a commercial cable station in the mid-80s. Heady stuff for a young homo whose previous exposure to gay love stories in movies was the simple-minded “Making Love.” I wish the romance between Joe and Rico had been a little more overtly presented, if for no other reason than as a counterpoint to Barnard Hughes’ “I’m icky, I deserve to be whalloped” rhetoric. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2002, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midnight-cowboy-how-soon-they-forget/100524/8 "2002-03-28T18:41:14Z")
according to [IMDB](http://us.imdb.com/Quotes?0064665) the character’s name is Rico Rizzo (well actually Enrico Salvatore Rizzo) , but people call him Ratso (and he doesn’t like it) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2002, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midnight-cowboy-how-soon-they-forget/100524/9 "2002-03-28T21:54:17Z")
I mentioned Midnight Cowboy as a film that I’m embarassed to admit I like, in the thread on that topic, but you guys make me feel _ **vindicated!** _ Actually I’d meant to write in that thread that I genuinely don’t understand why it’s so slated. Yes, it may be melodramatic and schmaltzy (although I feel that that’s open to debate as well) but the Shawshank Redemption is worse. SR is regarded as a serious work of art, and that puzzles me. ---
**Author:** ![jmpride62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@jmpride62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmpride62)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2002, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midnight-cowboy-how-soon-they-forget/100524/10 "2002-03-28T22:35:57Z")
Why would anyone be embarrassed to admit liking Midnight Cowboy? I admit that I am not as crazy about it as I use to be, but you have to remember that this film was released in 1969. Many of the things that were controversial to audiences then are commonplace now. I just remember discovering it when I was younger and coming from a very sheltered background. Yes the characters are self-loathing and you feel the need to shower after watching it, but the movie, along with other films gave me a glimpse of lifestyles that I never knew existed. I think that has also been most of the appeal of the Rocky Horror Picture Show and one of my all time favorites, Harold and Maude. These movies were about freaks like me not about a bunch of Aryans singing in the Alps. I think that we owe a great deal to these films from the late sixties and early seventies for challenging that insufferable conformity that so many of us were raised to embrace. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2002, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midnight-cowboy-how-soon-they-forget/100524/11 "2002-03-29T00:54:13Z")
I took the original post as a reference to Rico’s response to people calling him “Ratso.” It’s been a while since I’ve seen it but I think he would shout “My name is RICO!” ---
**Author:** ![poohpah\_chalupa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/91b2a8/32.png) [@poohpah\_chalupa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/poohpah_chalupa)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2002, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midnight-cowboy-how-soon-they-forget/100524/12 "2002-03-29T01:01:23Z")
[sub]…and who could forget…[/sub] **I’m walkin’ here!!!** Classic film. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2002, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midnight-cowboy-how-soon-they-forget/100524/13 "2002-03-29T01:32:27Z")
I don’t think it holds up that well, and parts are appallingly heavyhanded, but it was an important film in its time and certainly a good movie overall. I used to know someone who was an extra on the bus Joe Buck takes to New York. She’s become a fairly successful novelist since then. ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2002, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midnight-cowboy-how-soon-they-forget/100524/14 "2002-03-29T01:52:10Z")
Classic film, because of what it had to say. But from an entertainment perspective it is crap. I fell asleep twice watching it, and I rarely do that. Dustin Hoffman was so busy chewing scenery that the sets were probably held together by duct tape. But the OP makes a compelling case for the greatness of this film based on its accolades. Let me alter it slightly and see if the agreement is still strong: > [@](#): > > In this thread, a number of posters vilify the 1997 masterpiece known as _Titanic_. Can they be serious? > > Has any film ever contained better acting? How many films have had fourteen Oscar nominations, including two acting noms? Has there ever been a finer personification than Kate Winslett/Gloria Stuart as Rose Bukater? How many other movie characters have entered the collective consciousness to the degree that Rose did (why, I even saw a spoof of this character in a recent pawn shop advertisement!)? > > Jeez, even the soundtrack has become a type of musical icon winning both the Best Score and Best Song Academy Awards, and the soundtrack sold over 70 million copies worldwide with the marquee song also winning a Grammy. > > Before _Titanic_, how many “Hollywood” films even considered, let alone explored, the world of third class freight passengers? Nude modelling? The sound of a falling body hitting a smokestack? We may take these subjects as commonplace nowadays, but _Titanic_ was the groundbreaker. > > How many films before _Titanic_ chronicled the “mysoginist fiance”? Today, we take such a perspective for granted. Often we expect it. But before _Titanic_? > > _Titanic_ captured Oscars for best art direction - set design, best cinematography, best costume design, best director, best effects - sound effects editing, best effects - visual effects, best film editing, best music - original dramatic score, best music - song, best picture and best sound. And, as mentioned above, two of its stars were nominated for their acting as well as Greg Cannom for his wonderful make-up. Other organizations (eg. film critics, directors’ groups, etc.) were similarly forthcoming in their recognition of the film’s excellence. Can so many groups have been so misguided? > > I cannot understand why some of the most rational denizens of the SDMB feel compelled to put down this great film. Maybe familiarity (?filmiliarity) breeds contempt. Maybe it’s a form of cinematic revisionism. > > I know this is Cafe Society and not Great Debates, but I could not let this attack on one of my all-time favourite movies, and, IMO, one of the all-time greatest movies, go unchallenged. Now, aren’t we glad to learn that _Titanic_ is perhaps the best film of all time? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2002, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midnight-cowboy-how-soon-they-forget/100524/15 "2002-03-29T03:48:51Z")
I actually anticipated a response like **obfusciatrist** ’s (really) and asked myself whether substituting another film’s title for Midnight Cowboy in my OP, as **obfusciatrist** did, would prove to me that I was mistaken. Well, in some sense, s/he’s right. A high volume of Oscar nominations or awards is hardly proof of greatness. But, Midnight Cowboy was praised by groups that (I assume) were more objective. Was Titanic? I don’t know. And, whether it was or wasn’t, I don’t think it’s a make or break point to my argument anyway - Midnight Cowboy was much, much more than simply excellent acting and peer recognition. After making that legitimate point about how volume of awards do not prove excellence, **obfusciatrist** is simply joking (I hope). Midnight Cowboy broke new ground in what could be explored on screen. It showcased the anti-hero. As others have mentioned in this thread, much of what is now commonplace in film can be traced back to Midnight Cowboy. Substituting film titles cannot erase these facts. ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2002, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midnight-cowboy-how-soon-they-forget/100524/16 "2002-03-29T04:53:06Z")
Yeah, I was kidding. I don’t think _Titanic_ is a great movie (I also don’t think it was a bad movie), but I also don’t think that _Midnight Cowboy_ is all that great either. In another thread recently, I believe I put it on my list of worst movies to win Best Picture Academy Awards. I also don’t think you can give all the credit for “anti-heros” to _Midnight Cowboy_. You can find several strong anti-heros in earlier or contemporary films. Peter Fonda in _Easy Rider_ (1969), Marlon Brando in _The Wild One_ (1954), Jack Nicholson in _Five Easy Pieces_ (1970) – hell just about any early Jack Nicholson, John Wayne in _Red River_ (1948). This is just what I am thinking of off the top of my head; I’m sure there are many more examples. Yes, _Midnight Cowboy_ is a well made film, that was a leader in many ways, but to me it suffers from the ultimate sin of being boring. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2002, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midnight-cowboy-how-soon-they-forget/100524/17 "2002-03-29T05:13:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by poohpah chalupa \* > \*\*[sub]…and who could forget…[/sub] > > **I’m walkin’ here!!!** > > Classic film. \*\* From what I remember, Dustin Hoffman ad libed that line when a car pulled in front of him.