# Midway - the movie **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 31, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811 "2011-05-31T02:36:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/41 "2011-06-02T12:54:00Z")
The 2nd point that **ralph** makes is pertinent: the US of course had a doctrine where the battlewagons were the ones which softened up the landing sites, not the carrier-based aviation. Unfortunately the IJN had no such doctrine, else you would have had the Yamato and company blasting Midway to pieces while Nagumo lurks to the west (with anti-ship ordnance on his planes, natch), waiting for the American CVs to show up. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/42 "2011-06-02T13:19:22Z")
The objective was the destruction of the American carriers. The occupation of Midway was secondary. Hence the battleships were several hundred miles behind the Japanese carriers- they were to demolish the American fleet after the airstrikes had battered them. It wasn’t a simple matter of the battleships being able to nip in and shell Midway. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/43 "2011-06-02T13:26:49Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The Charlton Heston/Edward Albert father/son relationship storyline is just a painfully bad interruption to an otherwise riveting war movie. They probably cut out a lot of great stuff to get the time down to put that meaningless and ahistoical subplot in. These drippy wartime subplots seem to work better in books than movies. Another example is the tormented Willie-May relationship in _The Caine Mutiny_ (which also could have been a lot better movie if they hadn’t cast an inept male ingenue as Willie). ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/44 "2011-06-02T13:45:03Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > The 2nd point that **ralph** makes is pertinent: the US of course had a doctrine where the battlewagons were the ones which softened up the landing sites, not the carrier-based aviation. Unfortunately the IJN had no such doctrine, else you would have had the Yamato and company blasting Midway to pieces while Nagumo lurks to the west (with anti-ship ordnance on his planes, natch), waiting for the American CVs to show up. I don’t know for sure, but I doubt the US had that doctrine at the start of the war. The battleships were expected to be the main battle units in surface engagements, but the losses at Pearl Harbor forced the Navy to make carrier aviation the centerpiece of their striking power. Later, when the damaged battleships were returning to service and new ones coming out of the shipyards, it was already understood that they had almost no role left in surface combat. Except in a few cases like Leyte Gulf, when their opposition had no air cover either, they became bombardment platforms. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/45 "2011-06-02T15:20:59Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > It wasn’t a simple matter of the battleships being able to nip in and shell Midway. I see what you did there. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/46 "2011-06-02T15:23:10Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I see what you did there. Gosh- that was unintended. I had to look to see “What have I done now?” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![hellpaso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ecae2f/32.png) [@hellpaso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hellpaso)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/47 "2011-06-02T15:36:14Z")
My husband was actually in that movie! Well, sort of. He was in OCS at Pensacola and evidently they were required to be extras in the cast of thousands.:o ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/48 "2011-06-02T15:54:34Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > A few questions: > -why didn’t the japanese have an air patrol flying arond their carriers to protect them against attack? > -the land based plane from Midway scored almost no hits on the japanese task force-why didn’t Nagumo move hois battleships in and shell the island? As **Cicero** noted, there _was_ a CAP over the Japanese fleet. It had just spent a half hour wiping out our torpedo attack. It was sheer luck that the various uncoordinated dive-bomber groups all arrived over the fleet when they did. The first indication the Japanese had that they were doomed was when a lookout on the Akagi happened to look up. Fun fact: Nobody attacked the Akagi (I think that’s the one). After-action debriefings all say that the carriers bombed were the Kaga and Soryu. Nobody claims the Akagi. Yet it blowed up real good. This is why eye-witnesses are lousy sources. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/49 "2011-06-02T22:24:56Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > The objective was the destruction of the American carriers. The occupation of Midway was secondary. > > Hence the battleships were several hundred miles behind the Japanese carriers- they were to demolish the American fleet after the airstrikes had battered them. > > It wasn’t a simple matter of the battleships being able to nip in and shell Midway. I’ve read this like 5 times and I’m still not sure what you are saying, or how exactly you are disagreeing with me, since I did say that their doctrine simply didn’t recognize the value of the big gun ships in shore bombardment, and instead was still in the “mop up the survivors after the carrier planes have blown their wad” prewar frame of mind. An obvious strategy in hindsight was to use the heavies as bait (as they bombarded the islands) to get the attention of the US carriers, and then hit them at the optimal time of Nagumo’s choosing. But that isn’t even a what-if, because the Japanese doctrine didn’t even consider that an option (or even conceive of it in the first place). > [@silenus](#): > > Fun fact: Nobody attacked the Akagi (I think that’s the one). After-action debriefings all say that the carriers bombed were the Kaga and Soryu. Nobody claims the Akagi. Yet it blowed up real good. This is why eye-witnesses are lousy sources. Dick Best and his 2 wingmen were acknowledged as the ones who attacked Akagi-the only hit on her was by Best himself, but it set off a bunch of exploding ordnance & started a bunch of fires which the Japanese were ultimately unable to put out. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/50 "2011-06-02T22:33:15Z")
Yep, but the after-action reports by Best identify the carrier they bombed as one of the others. There was a lot of confusion as to which carrier had the island on what side. They eventually figured everything out, but _at the time_, nobody claimed bombing the Akagi. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/51 "2011-06-02T23:55:26Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > I’ve read this like 5 times and I’m still not sure what you are saying, or how exactly you are disagreeing with me, since I did say that their doctrine simply didn’t recognize the value of the big gun ships in shore bombardment, and instead was still in the “mop up the survivors after the carrier planes have blown their wad” prewar frame of mind. An obvious strategy in hindsight was to use the heavies as bait (as they bombarded the islands) to get the attention of the US carriers, and then hit them at the optimal time of Nagumo’s choosing. But that isn’t even a what-if, because the Japanese doctrine didn’t even consider that an option (or even conceive of it in the first place). Why do I have to be disagreeing with you? Ralph asked: -the land based plane from Midway scored almost no hits on the japanese task force-why didn’t Nagumo move hois battleships in and shell the island? You provided an answer to which I added a few more details. I can’t see that it is contrary to anything you wrote. Nor does it have to be - it is complementary. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/52 "2011-06-03T01:05:21Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Dick Best and his 2 wingmen were acknowledged as the ones who attacked Akagi-the only hit on her was by Best himself, but it set off a bunch of exploding ordnance & started a bunch of fires which the Japanese were ultimately unable to put out. Did only Akagi have all the planes on deck being reconfigured with all the fuel and bombs sitting around? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/53 "2011-06-03T01:12:12Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Did only Akagi have all the planes on deck being reconfigured with all the fuel and bombs sitting around? I don’t believe so. I think all the carriers were in the process of changing the weapons on the planes for an attack against the American fleet rather for a second strike at Midway. Hiryu only survived the first US carrier plane attack because it was hidden under some clouds a few miles away, IIRC. It wasn’t hit or even attacked. ---
**Author:** ![XXX19](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@XXX19](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XXX19)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/54 "2011-06-03T01:21:45Z")
Yes, all the planes were refuelling on the decks except the last one mentioned above. When the bombs hit with the fuel lines pumping gas it made the explosions bigger and sunk the ships faster. The code breakers enabled us to find them first as we sprung a trap. They lost 3,000 men and 400 planes - all were used at Pearl Harbor. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/55 "2011-06-03T01:43:13Z")
> [@XXX19](#): > > The code breakers enabled us to find them first as we sprung a > trap. > . Nitpick: I’m not sure this is correct. The codebreakers and some good intelligence work enabled the USA to know that Midway was the target but the actual location of the Task Force was due to aerial surveillance. Wiki seems to hint more at code breakers. Anyone got more info? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/56 "2011-06-03T03:15:58Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Did only Akagi have all the planes on deck being reconfigured with all the fuel and bombs sitting around? No. The Japanese were still rearming for their counterstrike against the American carriers. The Japanese did all their arming of aircraft in the hangar bay. The flight decks were kept clear in an effort to recycle the CAP. Aircraft packed into the hangar bay is actually more of an explosive condition than being out on the flight deck. The compact hangars of the older carriers (Akagi, Kaga) makes fighting fires difficult. Stuff burning on the flight deck can be jettisoned overboard. This was the conclusions reached by Shattered Sword, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/57 "2011-06-03T03:23:06Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > Nitpick: I’m not sure this is correct. The codebreakers and some good intelligence work enabled the USA to know that Midway was the target but the actual location of the Task Force was due to aerial surveillance. > > Wiki seems to hint more at code breakers. Anyone got more info? I can’t find the hint you’re referring to. Please quote it. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/58 "2011-06-03T03:24:11Z")
Whether we knew the exact location of their fleet, the code breakers certainly did allow us to find them first and spring a trap. The US Navy got into the area far sooner than the Japanese expected, and before they were looking seriously. And the Navy sent a shit load of very long range Catalina flying boats to Midway for surveillance, so their fleet was spotted first. The US actually attacked the Japanese the day before the big carrier battle, with a squadron of B-17s that didn’t hit anything. And they sent some of those flying boats in a torpedo attack that night – there is some conflicting information over whether they git a hit on one of the supply ships. The big battles happened the next day. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/59 "2011-06-03T03:39:44Z")
Catalinas with torpedoes? They must have been sitting ducks. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/60 "2011-06-03T03:42:38Z")
They all survived IIRC. The attack was in the middle of the night. The biggest surprise was that they actually found any targets. I’m pretty sure they didn’t have radar yet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811.md?page=4)