# Midway - the movie **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 31, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811 "2011-05-31T02:36:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![XXX19](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@XXX19](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XXX19)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/81 "2011-06-04T10:31:11Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > I can’t give the conspiracy theory because I believe that FDR would have had ample justification to go to war with Japan if the miltary had been fully warned and was prepared for an attack. He would not have had to lose so many ships and lives. > > I haven’t read a book that gives any convincing argument for it ( I have not read the one mentioned by **Boyo Jim** ). However some conspiracy books are so ridiculous as to harm the cause. One I read stated that FDR oredered the fleet to be anchored in a more exposed location. The president telling his Admiral where to anchor the ships? And no one would have remembered that afterward? Good point. He had ample justification to go to war but the fact is, he didn’t. The country was still in isolationism and the politicians didn’t want it. I mean, Hitler is bombing the hell out of England and we don’t even help out. In fact, I just read that Pearl Harbor wasn’t even necessary because Japan could have taken all the islands w/o a fight from us we were so pacive. Until Dec 7th. Hitler made the dumbest misake of his life declaring war on U.S. LOL. HEY GUYS - Another worthy thread is could Patton have gone to Moscow like he wanted to and could MacArthur have taken China? I believe Patton would have gotten to Moscow but would have been cut off and surrounded like the Germans in Stalingrad, which was about 2,000 miles from the German border. The Germans stretched their lines out too far enabling the Russians to shoot the gaps and surround them. Over 90,000 troops surrended. Napolean made it to Moscow but withdew. Mobody was there. Everyone took off. The only way Patton could have held Russia was by using nukes early. Hell, he couldn’t even go thru 600 miles in France w/o running out of gas and supplies which is what allowed Bastone to happen. We were bogged down in defensive positions because we were out of fuel. So how could Patton expect to go 3,000 miles to Moscow and hold it? Sorry to get off the track. Does anyone want to start some new theads-lol. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/82 "2011-06-04T14:56:37Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > I can’t give the conspiracy theory because I believe that FDR would have had ample justification to go to war with Japan if the miltary had been fully warned and was prepared for an attack. He would not have had to lose so many ships and lives. > > I haven’t read a book that gives any convincing argument for it ( I have not read the one mentioned by **Boyo Jim** ). However some conspiracy books are so ridiculous as to harm the cause. One I read stated that FDR oredered the fleet to be anchored in a more exposed location. The president telling his Admiral where to anchor the ships? And no one would have remembered that afterward? Someone wrote an alt-history short story where it was Doolittle who put 2 and 2 together that Pearl would be the IJN’s first target, and trained his B-25 crews to perform daring low level bombing runs. His planes go out early on Dec 7th (they’ve been doing morning patrols for weeks), find the Japanese carriers, and bomb the hey out of them before they can launch their attack (Doolittle dies in the process). But instead of getting a very pissed off electorate like we did in this timeline, the reaction of the American public to a bunch of Japanese ships preemptively bombed near Hawaii before they can bomb Pearl is a collective meh, and the US isn’t as successful in the Pacific as they actually were, despite a bunch of perfectly undamaged battlewagons. War dragged on to 1948 IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![XXX19](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@XXX19](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XXX19)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/83 "2011-06-04T15:17:13Z")
Interesting but the movie Midway pointed out that it was a sub commander who came up with the Doolittle raid. I know you said that was just an alt-history story. Remember FDR says, I like sub commanders. They don’t have time for bull. Bull Halsey said the most important weapons of the war were the plane, radar, sub and bull dozer. My uncle operated a bull dozer and built air strips all over the pacific as a Sea Bee. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/84 "2011-06-04T18:13:34Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > No. The Japanese were still rearming for their counterstrike against the American carriers. The Japanese did all their arming of aircraft in the hangar bay. The flight decks were kept clear in an effort to recycle the CAP. > > Aircraft packed into the hangar bay is actually more of an explosive condition than being out on the flight deck. The compact hangars of the older carriers (Akagi, Kaga) makes fighting fires difficult. Stuff burning on the flight deck can be jettisoned overboard. > > This was the conclusions reached by Shattered Sword, anyway. Beat me to it. I just finished reading [Shattered Sword](http://www.shatteredswordbook.com/myths.htm) and it’s excellent, although it focuses almost entirely on the Japanese side of the battle. > [@XXX19](#): > > But you know, it’s funny how our fleet was supposed to be so crippled and even destroyed yetwe won every major sea battle after Pearl Harbor including the big one - Midway. Not true. We got our asses handed to us in the Java Sea, suffered some disastrous setbacks in the waters around Guadalcanal, and Santa Cruz could be considered a loss as well. > [@Boyo Jim](#): > > Wasn’t Midway the movie that re-used a bunch of action footage from from Tora! Tora! Tora! ? Or am I misremembering which movie did that? Lots from that, and _Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo_, and at least one Japanese movie. > [@Cicero](#): > > The objective was the destruction of the American carriers. The occupation of Midway was secondary. > > Hence the battleships were several hundred miles behind the Japanese carriers- they were to demolish the American fleet after the airstrikes had battered them. > > It wasn’t a simple matter of the battleships being able to nip in and shell Midway. They did have a separate task group of 4 heavy cruisers to shell Midway, but they were recalled after the disaster. When a US submarine showed up, 2 collided in the disarray and our planes later sunk one of them, the _Mikuma_. > [@Boyo Jim](#): > > I don’t believe so. I think all the carriers were in the process of changing the weapons on the planes for an attack against the American fleet rather for a second strike at Midway. Hiryu only survived the first US carrier plane attack because it was hidden under some clouds a few miles away, IIRC. It wasn’t hit or even attacked. The 2nd wave planes were already armed to attack ships, but Nagumo disobeyed Yamamoto’s order by having them re-armed for a 2nd strike on Midway. When the US task force was (belatedly) spotted, he ordered them re-re-armed, but they were a long way from getting planes spotted for takeoff on the flight deck when they ran out of time. > [@](#): > > And the Navy sent a shit load of very long range Catalina flying boats to Midway for surveillance, so their fleet was spotted first. The US actually attacked the Japanese the day before the big carrier battle, with a squadron of B-17s that didn’t hit anything. And they sent some of those flying boats in a torpedo attack that night – there is some conflicting information over whether they git a hit on one of the supply ships. The only American torpedo hit of the battle was by the night-flying Catalinas on an oiler, which somehow managed to stay in formation. As for the B-17s, we should have know by then that you can’t hit moving ships with bombs from high altitude. You can disrupt carrier operations tho, so they should have dropped larger numbers of smaller bombs over a longer period of time. Afterwards (I’m talking about during the main battle), they should have roared in at low level to support the torpedo planes by drawing fire, shooting at the Zeroes and strafing the carriers’ AA defenses (one B-17 did do the latter). ---
**Author:** ![XXX19](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@XXX19](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XXX19)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/85 "2011-06-04T18:31:00Z")
Like Coral Ridge, Santa Cruz was a strategic victory for the U.S. That’s not getting your ass kicked. Again, the point is, after having our entire Navy crippled at Pearl we did pretty well thereafter and defeated the Japs. We also took Gaudacanal. * * * ``` Vice-Admiral Halsey had, after the strategic success of the Battle of Santa Cruz, once again many problems to solve but few tools to work out a solution. ``` * * * [http://www.microworks.net/pacific/battles/naval\_battle\_guadalcanal\_1.htm](http://www.microworks.net/pacific/battles/naval_battle_guadalcanal_1.htm) ---
**Author:** ![XXX19](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@XXX19](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XXX19)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/86 "2011-06-04T18:38:52Z")
> [@XXX19](#): > > Like Coral Ridge, Santa Cruz was a strategic victory for the U.S. That’s not getting your ass kicked. > > Again, the point is, after having our entire Navy crippled at Pearl we did pretty well thereafter and defeated the Japs. > > We also took Gaudacanal. > > * * * > > ``` > Vice-Admiral Halsey had, after the strategic success of the Battle of Santa Cruz, once again many problems to solve but few tools to work out a solution. > > ``` > > * * * > > [The Naval Battle of Guadalcanal (I), 12th/13th November, 1942](http://www.microworks.net/pacific/battles/naval_battle_guadalcanal_1.htm) Guadacanal was a campaign series of naval battles the Japs lost in the end. In the first one it was mostly US escort ships damaged and the Jap commander didn’t know where the carriers were. * * * Unfortunately, it wasn’t just a battle, it was a campaign; a campaign they could not hope to win, as the material superiority of their adversary, and the willingness of the Americans to accept stunning naval losses to hold the island gradually eroded the vital cruiser and destroyer strengths of the Japanese Navy. * * * We took the island with the Jap fleet protecting it in the beginning. > **[Guadalcanal Campaign | Nihon Kaigun](http://www.combinedfleet.com/battles/Guadalcanal_Campaign)** ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/87 "2011-06-04T18:46:06Z")
We won the Guadalcanal campaign, but we lost several naval battles along the way. Especially the first, when the Japanese sunk four cruisers and 2? destroyers, and essentially forced the American carriers to withdraw. For a while, the Japanese Navy controlled the seas, though the Marines managed to hold onto the ground they took. ---
**Author:** ![XXX19](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@XXX19](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XXX19)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/88 "2011-06-04T18:47:33Z")
Again, they were tactical victories, not strategic victories. Yea, we lost some ships but a lot of escort ships plus the Hornet. Savo Island was another strategic victory for the U.S. A tactical one for Japan but they’d rather have the strategic W. Hell, Pearl Harbor was a tactical W but not a strategic one. Strategic victories are the big picture. And again, this is pretty damn impressive considering we had a crippled fleet. ---
**Author:** ![XXX19](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@XXX19](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XXX19)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/89 "2011-06-04T18:52:33Z")
Battle of Cape Esperance of the Guadacanal Campaign. A flawed victory for the U.S. More ships were lost but we still won with a crippled fleet. Strategic planning for the US was to allow for loss of ships like the Hornet but to still win in the end. They wore em down. ---
**Author:** ![XXX19](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@XXX19](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XXX19)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/90 "2011-06-04T18:58:09Z")
Battle of Eastern Solomon Islands of Guadacanal Campaign. * * * With their first major offensive on Guadalcanal unsuccessful, Imperial Japan needed to reinforce their weakened position on Guadalcanal and bring in fresh troops if another offensive was to be mounted against the American marines that had captured the island * * * > **[Wizards of the Coast](https://company.wizards.com/en)** > > Wizards of the Coast is a family of studios specializing in building role playing, trading card, and digital games for all genres of players. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/91 "2011-06-04T19:07:18Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Urban legend has it that every time the Naval War College has gamed the battle, they’ve never once reproduced a US victory. Luck does matter. As does hindsight. Just the simple fact of knowing how many US carriers are going to be in the battle would make a huge difference in how a person wargames a battle. Hell, I have never seen a wargame of Gettysburg end up remotely like how the battle took place. Anyone who studied the battle knows what will and what won’t work. For more fun, read about how the Japanese cheated when they ran wargames of the battle _before_ it took place (Shattered Sword, again). ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/92 "2011-06-04T19:10:47Z")
> [@XXX19](#): > > The biggest ships lost at Pearl were the Arizona and Oklahoma two of the biggest destroyers in the world at that time and we still kicked Japan’s ass. They were battleships, not cruisers. Also, referring to the Japanese as “Japs” is the same as calling a Mexican a “Beaner” or a Vietnamese a “Gook”. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/93 "2011-06-04T19:12:30Z")
A bigger problem for the Japanese CAP was not so much that they were all refueling, but rather that a) they were low on 20mm ammo and the .30 caliber wasn’t as useful in bringing down enemy planes and b) the bomber squad that actually hit the carriers wasn’t being as nice about getting shot down. They either flew in formation where the tail gunners could make trouble for the attacking enemy pilots or flew in such a crazy manner to be a hard target. This is described in Shattered Sword, and its another one of those moments where you can almost hear the collective Japanese Navy go “ummm, this isn’t fun anymore.” ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/94 "2011-06-04T19:31:43Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Urban legend has it that every time the Naval War College has gamed the battle, they’ve never once reproduced a US victory. Luck does matter. If memory serves, there was one instance where the US carriers were on scene at the start of the battle and hit the Japanese carriers when their air groups were off attacking Midway (sound familiar?). Two Japanese carriers were sunk, but the referees countermanded the results and refloated at least one. ---
**Author:** ![XXX19](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@XXX19](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XXX19)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/95 "2011-06-04T20:18:24Z")
Another point, during the entire 4 months of the Guadacanal Canal Campaign both the Japs and US lost 23 ships each. US could afford the losses in ships and men, the Japs couldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/96 "2011-06-05T10:37:45Z")
If you would please XXX19, refrain from using the term “Jap” for the Japanese. Than you, Ellen Cherry Cafe Society moderator ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/97 "2011-06-05T12:04:47Z")
Guys, I will start a thread in GQ’s to get this away from Cafe Society. I’ll post a link back here. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/98 "2011-06-05T12:29:34Z")
New thread [here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13880317#post13880317) ---
**Author:** ![XXX19](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@XXX19](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XXX19)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/99 "2011-06-05T14:04:07Z")
> [@user\_hostile](#): > > They were battleships, not cruisers. > > Also, referring to the Japanese as “Japs” is the same as calling a Mexican a “Beaner” or a Vietnamese a “Gook”. Bullshit, that’s what they are. It’s in their name. That would be true if you said cink or something. I never used a word like that. I never used the word Gook when I killed them during the Vietnam War. Beaner? Never even heard of that. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811/100 "2011-06-05T14:12:03Z")
XXX19- you won’t win this. Ellen has been very kind to date. I’d suggest (in a friendly way) not to push her- just leave this alone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-movie/583811.md?page=6)