IIRC, the carrier that was sunk but never attacked was the Soryu. A good part of the problem seems to have been misidentification: the Soryu was thought to be smaller than a fleet carrier, and of course everyone was certain they had hit a fleet carrier. In reality the Soryu, while smaller than the Akagi or Kaga, was roughly the equivalent of the US carriers.
(Primary source: Incredible Victory, in which Walter Lord devotes an entire appendix to the subject of who hit the Soryu [he concludes that it was the Yorktown]. But other sources I’ve encountered come to the same conclusion.)
It was definitely the Hiryu which survived the dive bombers and was sunk later in the day after launching a counterstrike that was ultimately fatal to the Yorktown.
As a result, the Americans entered the battle with a very good picture of where, when, and in what strength the Japanese would appear. Nimitz was aware, for example, that the vast Japanese numerical superiority had been divided into no less than four task forces
Here’s another even more detailed link how the code breakers won the war in the pacific but you
still won’t get it.
Due to the cryptologic achievements of Rochefort and his staff, Nimitz knew that the attack on Midway would commence on 3 June. Armed with this crucial information, he was able to get his outgunned but determined force in position in time. On 4 June the battle was finally joined. The early stages of the conflict consisted of several courageous but ineffective attacks by assorted Navy, Marine, and Army Air Corps units.
I am not saying that the code breakers did not assist in the war in the Pacific. I am saying they did not give the position of the Japanese fleet at Midway (which for most of us is what this thread has become). Try and comprehend- even read- a few of my posts.
To assist you, these are a few quotes readily available online as to how the location of the Japanese fleet was ascertained:
"The Enterprise and the Hornet left Pearl Harbour on the 28th May 1942. Two days later came the Yorktown along with their support ships in two task forces. The carriers rendezvoused on the 2nd June 1942 at a spot about 390 miles northeast of Midway. They all knew that their chances of success would be much higher if they could find the Japanese before the Japanese found them.
**As it happened, the 3rd June 1942 was a lucky day for the Americans when a Catalina flying boat flying a search fan out of Midway spotted the Japanese fleet and sent coded messages back to Midway. **"
“Even before the Japanese planes attacked Midway, however, Nagumo’s carriers lost their most important defence when they were spotted by Lt. Howard Ady, piloting a PBY.”
I will reiterate: Naval intelligence and code breaking was vital in the war. It (through clever use regarding water condensors being out of action) did reveal that Midway was the target. It did not give the location of the Japanese fleets.
Not the best choice of words: I was referring to the carrier that was sunk in the first carrier-based dive bomber strike, despite the fact that all the pilots insisted that they were attacking one of the other two.
One thing the movie showed was how naval intelligence predicted blow-dried hairstyles for men and, for the Japanese girlfriend, long straight hippie chick hair a quarter century ahead of time. The scene where they jettisoned all the flammable pomade off the flight deck was cut for some reason.
The link I provided and the movie said they;re coming exacty from where Nimitz said they would come. He knew
because of the code breakers and had our ships stationed
in the right position off Midway to counter them.
You might take that suggestion yourself. XXX19 didn’t claim that. The post was:
That is unequivocally true and yet you’ve been objecting to it for multiple posts.
The code breakers enabled us to put our carriers in the vicinity at the right time. The code breakers led directly to using those recon Catalinas at Midway in order to find the Japanese fleet, and they DID find the Japanese Fleet. And we did spring a trap, all because the code breakers let us place our forces where they could be of most use, at a time when the Japanese had no reason to expect American carriers to be anywhere nearby.
Thank you so much Jim. That’s exactly what I have learned since my
high school days and college about the code breaks. The guy above
is the first to say it wasn’t them.
Also, the code breakers found the Jap fleet in the Coral Sea operation a month before Midway. Two of their carriers were
disabled and in Japan during Midway and all their planes at
Coral Sea were decimated.
Thanks to the code breakers which in fact broke the Jap codes a
year before Pearl Harbor and allowed FDR to know Japan was not
serious about peace.
Most post people don’t believe it, but I think it is slightly possible. There was a very famous and respected historian named John Toland who over the course of many years and writing books about the war and Pearl Harbor, came to believe it. Ultimately he wrote a book about it, Infamy, laying out his case as best as he could. I highly recommend it. Even if you don’t agree with his conclusions, it is very well researched and very well written. It is the best argument available for the theory.
FYI, Toland had already won a Pulitzer for Rising Sun, another excellent book about Japanese militarism before and during the war.
As to the Chruchill thing, I can’t even remember if Toland addressed it, but I think not. Earlier this very evening in another thread I came across some material about this. I don’t buy this particular claim, because I simply don’t believe it could have been kept secret if Churchill told his whole cabinet about it before the attack.
And of course, that’s the main reason hardly anyone believes the Roosevelt story – that it couldn’t have been kept secret and no smoking gun ever turned up.
This is about the only conspiracy theory I gave any credence to at all.
It you want to discuss it further, you’re welcome to start a thread. I’ll even look around to see if Infamy is still on my bookshelf.
I should note that Infamy was written in 1982, and I probably read it around the same time, and it caused a big stir in large part because Toland was a respected guy that people couldn’t easily dismiss as a crank.
It is certainly possible that in the years since, new evidence has come to light that discredits the theory. I haven’t been following it closely so I wouldn’t know.
I can’t give the conspiracy theory because I believe that FDR would have had ample justification to go to war with Japan if the miltary had been fully warned and was prepared for an attack. He would not have had to lose so many ships and lives.
I haven’t read a book that gives any convincing argument for it ( I have not read the one mentioned by Boyo Jim). However some conspiracy books are so ridiculous as to harm the cause. One I read stated that FDR oredered the fleet to be anchored in a more exposed location. The president telling his Admiral where to anchor the ships? And no one would have remembered that afterward?
I can’t give the conspiracy theory because I believe that FDR would have had ample justification to go to war with Japan if the miltary had been fully warned and was prepared for an attack. He would not have had to lose so many ships and lives.
I haven’t read a book that gives any convincing argument for it ( I have not read the one mentioned by Boyo Jim). However some conspiracy books are so ridiculous as to harm the cause. One I read stated that FDR oredered the fleet to be anchored in a more exposed location. The president telling his Admiral where to anchor the ships? And no one would have remembered that afterward?