# Midway, The naval Campaign in the Pacific and a Catch All **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2011, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-naval-campaign-in-the-pacific-and-a-catch-all/584385 "2011-06-05T12:22:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-naval-campaign-in-the-pacific-and-a-catch-all/584385/41 "2011-06-09T00:46:42Z")
> [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > my other rant is the defense of the philippines. i believe macarthur could have built up a mechanized and armored force strong enough to repel any invasion force the japanese could have thrown in (not more than 4 infantry divisions or 40,000 men.) seems doug wasn’t really that good when it came to mechanized fighting. Where would he get tanks and armored vehicles? Hardly any existed in the US inventory before the war started. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-naval-campaign-in-the-pacific-and-a-catch-all/584385/42 "2011-06-09T00:55:01Z")
they had tanks during the bataan battle, remember? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-naval-campaign-in-the-pacific-and-a-catch-all/584385/43 "2011-06-09T01:00:27Z")
> [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > “sufficient” warning would not have mattered. the US was not psychologically prepared to meet a massed carrier plane attack. they would have needed more than 3 days for all the ships to clear to blue water. If in fact it is true that it would have taken three days for the fleet to get out of Pearl Harbor, how does this constitute a lack of “psychological” preparedness? > [@](#): > > regarding that comment that 2,000 planes would have been in the air, this is what happened just before the attack: the escorting zeros were already hovering above the harbor. p-40s were circling below them FOR A FULL 10 MINUTES. I don’t suppose you have a cite for this? ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-naval-campaign-in-the-pacific-and-a-catch-all/584385/44 "2011-06-09T01:49:48Z")
too many sources. read the account of fuchida at pearl and sakai over clark. the george welch biography says 2 p-40s tried to scramble only after the attack began at 7:55 but were shot down almost immediately. however, there were not just 2 p-40s shot down from the air between 7:55 and 9:45. they included 2 p-36s, the 2 p-40s and a couple of trainers. others say 4 p-40s were shot down, not destroyed on the ground. what’s clear is that 2 tried to scramble once the attack began. from fuchida’s own record, they approached the harbor at 7:20. american radar already picked them up (fuchida was piloting a bomber while the zeros were already at high cover. other zeros were low, preparing to attack wheeler and hickam.) at 7:40 with no opposition (more than 10 minutes) fuchida dropped his first flare. at 7:49, radioed ‘to-to-to!’ at 7:53, ‘tora-tora-tora!’ at 7:55 the first bomb exploded. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-naval-campaign-in-the-pacific-and-a-catch-all/584385/45 "2011-06-09T02:44:30Z")
> [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > too many sources. read the account of fuchida at pearl and sakai over clark. the george welch biography says 2 p-40s tried to scramble only after the attack began at 7:55 but were shot down almost immediately. however, there were not just 2 p-40s shot down from the air between 7:55 and 9:45. they included 2 p-36s, the 2 p-40s and a couple of trainers. others say 4 p-40s were shot down, not destroyed on the ground. what’s clear is that 2 tried to scramble once the attack began. > > from fuchida’s own record, they approached the harbor at 7:20. american radar already picked them up (fuchida was piloting a bomber while the zeros were already at high cover. other zeros were low, preparing to attack wheeler and hickam.) at 7:40 with no opposition (more than 10 minutes) fuchida dropped his first flare. at 7:49, radioed ‘to-to-to!’ at 7:53, ‘tora-tora-tora!’ at 7:55 the first bomb exploded. None of what you have typed here supports your previous claim that American fighters were circling under sighted Japanese aircraft and did nothing about it. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-naval-campaign-in-the-pacific-and-a-catch-all/584385/46 "2011-06-09T02:59:35Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > None of what you have typed here supports your previous claim that American fighters were circling under sighted Japanese aircraft and did nothing about it. can’t find that exact account but we know japanese planes were above the target area at least 10 minutes before tha attack (it takes only 2 minutes to scramble) and that more american planes appear to have been shot down than those who scrambled after the attack. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-naval-campaign-in-the-pacific-and-a-catch-all/584385/47 "2011-06-09T02:59:38Z")
> [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > “sufficient” warning would not have mattered. the US was not psychologically prepared to meet a massed carrier plane attack. they would have needed more than 3 days for all the ships to clear to blue water. > > regarding that comment that 2,000 planes would have been in the air, this is what happened just before the attack: the escorting zeros were already hovering above the harbor. p-40s were circling below them FOR A FULL 10 MINUTES. the zeros didn’t attack because they were ordered to wait for the bomber force. the p-40s simply didn’t know what to make of things. remember, there was no declaration of war. even if an attack was eminent, they would have scrambled up to meet the zeros and leave the harbor free for the dive bombers and torpedo planes to plaster… No one said 2,000 planes. I said “several hundred”, and looking it up, I see that I overstated it, but not by a whole lot. I found this page listing the American aircraft at Pearl Harbor, and the fighters add up to 200. And they were all obsolete to a greater or lesser degree. Some probably wouldn’t have been serviceable, OTOH depending on how much warning there was they might have been put in service in time. . Still, there were only 108 Japanese Zeros in the entire Japanese attacking force. That many American fighters in the air would have seriously disrupted the Japanese bombing runs. I don’t recall anything about p-40s in the air before the attack. How many? I would assume they were simply on some kind of practice flight and perhaps weren’t even armed. Had they been launched with orders to attack incoming planes, they wouldn’t have just circled around aimlessly. Two American fighters took off after the attack had already started and shot down at least 7 planes between them. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-naval-campaign-in-the-pacific-and-a-catch-all/584385/48 "2011-06-09T03:02:11Z")
> [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > can’t find that exact account but we know japanese planes were above the target area at least 10 minutes before tha attack (it takes only 2 minutes to scramble) and that more american planes appear to have been shot down than those who scrambled after the attack. Where do you get it takes two minutes to scramble? Maybe it does, if the pilots are sitting in their planes, and their planes are fully loaded and fueled. My WAG for how many planes would be on standby like that at the time – zero. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-naval-campaign-in-the-pacific-and-a-catch-all/584385/49 "2011-06-09T09:39:23Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Two American fighters took off after the attack had already started and shot down at least 7 planes between them. As I recall the story, something like seven American planes got in the air during the attack, mostly obsolete P-35s, and a pair of P-40s that were stationed at a smaller airstrip (and thus missed the attention of the first wave that hit Wheeler and Hickam). Not sure how the P-35s did (fun fact: They were a predecessor of the P-47 Thunderbolt, and the ones stationed in Hawaii had metric instruments because they were originally built for the Swedes). IIRC, the P-40s that took off each got one or two kills against Japanese bombers before having to return to base due to damage and limited ammo. As for why it might take so long to get the fleet out of the harbor, part of it might just be that, if they were prepared to fight a war, they wouldn’t have the whole fleet in the harbor to begin with. Also, ships would be more likely to be prepared to leave in a hurry (steam engines require time to warm up and produce steam pressure before they can do anything). Through the course of the attack, for instance, only one of the battleships (USS Nevada, BB-36) got underway, and she didn’t even make it clear of the channel. being forced to run aground after taking too much damage. Even discounting the time it takes to heat up a set of boilers, some of the ships might have even been in a mild state of disrepair, their crews having no particular time-critical incentive to have everything ready to go. Mind you aside from the boilers, that’s all pure conjecture on my part. I also recall that many of the personnel were still in bed when they got attacked. There is a big difference in your ability to react and respond if you are awake and paying attention as opposed to hungover and passed out in your rack. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-naval-campaign-in-the-pacific-and-a-catch-all/584385/50 "2011-06-09T09:40:37Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Where do you get it takes two minutes to scramble? Maybe it does, if the pilots are sitting in their planes, and their planes are fully loaded and fueled. My WAG for how many planes would be on standby like that at the time – zero. Yeah, the 2 minutes to scramble sounds optimistic, unless the planes were sitting at the ends of the runway with the pilot sitting there sipping his coffee in the cockpit. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-naval-campaign-in-the-pacific-and-a-catch-all/584385/51 "2011-06-09T16:07:06Z")
Indeed. 2 minutes to scramble? Maybe for the RAF’s on duty units in the middle of The Blitz but not on a Sunday morning in peacetime. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-naval-campaign-in-the-pacific-and-a-catch-all/584385/52 "2011-06-09T18:13:31Z")
> [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > can’t find that exact account but we know japanese planes were above the target area at least 10 minutes before tha attack (it takes only 2 minutes to scramble) So you’re now stating with authority that the Americans positively sighted the Japanese planes circling over the target area (a claim for which you have not provided a cite) and were, on December 7, 1941, capable of scrambling intereptors in 2 minutes? If you have some evidence to back up your claims you are welcome to present it. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-naval-campaign-in-the-pacific-and-a-catch-all/584385/53 "2011-06-09T18:35:56Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Yeah, the 2 minutes to scramble sounds optimistic, unless the planes were sitting at the ends of the runway with the pilot sitting there sipping his coffee in the cockpit. The standards used during the Battle of Britain, IIRC, were “Ready 5”: pilot sitting in plane, waiting at taxiway next to runway, and “Ready 10”: pilot sitting in chair near airplane, wearing flightsuit, playing cards or what have you. The numbers referred to expected time from “Go!” to airborne. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-naval-campaign-in-the-pacific-and-a-catch-all/584385/54 "2011-06-09T18:38:51Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > That’s not his fault. He did not excercise tactical control of the subs in the Phillippines. I contend that if Mac wanted credit for everything, even things he did not do and was not responsible for, it’s fair to blame him for the failures too. He could in theory have demanded that the Navy supply a more rigorously trained submarine force, for example. But mostly I just like to rag on ol’ Dugout Doug. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-naval-campaign-in-the-pacific-and-a-catch-all/584385/55 "2011-06-09T18:54:13Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > I contend that if Mac wanted credit for everything, even things he did not do and was not responsible for, it’s fair to blame him for the failures too. He could in theory have demanded that the Navy supply a more rigorously trained submarine force, for example. But mostly I just like to rag on ol’ Dugout Doug. Heh. Mac was quick to take credit, and just as quick to point the finger to deflect blame. But the reality was that he was not really interested in the minutiae on Navy planning and operations… after all, the Army is the senior service, right? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-naval-campaign-in-the-pacific-and-a-catch-all/584385/56 "2011-06-09T19:12:39Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > As I recall the story, something like seven American planes got in the air during the attack, mostly obsolete P-35s, and a pair of P-40s that were stationed at a smaller airstrip (and thus missed the attention of the first wave that hit Wheeler and Hickam). Not sure how the P-35s did (fun fact: They were a predecessor of the P-47 Thunderbolt, and the ones stationed in Hawaii had metric instruments because they were originally built for the Swedes). IIRC, the P-40s that took off each got one or two kills against Japanese bombers before having to return to base due to damage and limited ammo… The two pilots were [Kenneth Taylo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_M._Taylor)r and [George Welch](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Welch_%28pilot%29). They both managed to get into the air, shoot until running out of ammo, then land and re-arm and get back into the air and shoot down more planes. According to the Wiki pages, I got the number correct. Apparently confirmed by post-war examination of Japanese records they each shot down 3 planes individually, and both got a piece of the 7th plane. FYI, the page also mentions that a total of 17 American fighters made it into the air, and [Order of Battle - Pearl Harbor - Battles of the Pacific - World War II - NavWeaps](http://www.navweaps.com/index_oob/OOB_WWII_Pacific/OOB_WWII_Pearl_Harbor.htm) says they claimed a total of nine victories split among 5 of the pilots. That is nearly one third of all Japanese air losses. Welch was credited with 4 and Taylor with two, though later research changed these numbers a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Damfino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Damfino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damfino)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-naval-campaign-in-the-pacific-and-a-catch-all/584385/57 "2011-06-13T21:46:26Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Re: Identifying radiomen by how they signal: I’ve heard this from various different places. Supposedly back in the days when Western Union was the preferred way to send an electronic message, many of the operators could recognize each other just by their keying style. Granted, they were always communicating with each other, both in terms of passing on messages and just having idle chat during the slower hours. > > As far as Midway goes, supposedly the radioman on Yamamoto’s flagship tapped in such a way that the American codebreakers wondered if he just sat on the radio key and bounced up and down on it. Lord Louis Mountbatten reputedly could identify an operator’s “fist” when Communications Officer of the Fleet at Malta by listening to the repeater in his bath. Ian Fleming mentions that Secret Service transmissions were monitored in a similar fashion to prevent impersonation in “Doctor No.” So there must be something in it. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-naval-campaign-in-the-pacific-and-a-catch-all/584385/58 "2011-06-14T02:50:39Z")
> [@Damfino](#): > > Lord Louis Mountbatten reputedly could identify an operator’s “fist” when Communications Officer of the Fleet at Malta by listening to the repeater in his bath. Ian Fleming mentions that Secret Service transmissions were monitored in a similar fashion to prevent impersonation in “Doctor No.” > So there must be something in it. There is no detail too minor that electronic warfare operators will not try to use it to pull more information. ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-naval-campaign-in-the-pacific-and-a-catch-all/584385/59 "2011-06-14T12:04:39Z")
A humble suggestion from the New guy. Maybe Great Debates should create a “HIstorical Debates” thread for these kinds of discussions. The theory that FDR must have known Pearl Harbor was going to happen is kind of like the 'Truthers" who are convinced Bush must have known 9-11 was coming and let it happen as well. FDR wanted a war against Hitler, Bush wanted a war against Saddam. The theories don’t stand up to real scrutiny, though. That Japan was planning military action was no secret. That is why they had special envoys in Washington negotiating a peace. That’s why General Short had the airplanes at Pearl Harbor lined up in nice neat rows so they would be easier to guard from sabatours. (They were also easier to strafe from the air.) The problem was not so much in preparedness but in thinking. The US Navy at that time was still very much in the mode of thinking in terms of Battleships, not Carriers. Carriers were a new fangled thing. The original notion of the Aircraft Carrier was that the planes would fly around to find things for the battleships to shoot at. the abbreviation for aircraft carrier was “CV”- Cruiser Aviation. Now, we were advancing, but not quickly, and Japan was on the cutting edge of seeing the potential of the carrier. The Japanese also developed special shallow water torpedoes and acquired special bomb sights from the Germans. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/midway-the-naval-campaign-in-the-pacific-and-a-catch-all/584385.md?page=2)