# Might invading North Korea be both a moral duty, and a sure thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2010, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094 "2010-07-18T03:28:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![MrK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@MrK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrK)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/81 "2010-07-19T16:45:37Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > On the ground, you’ve got a logisitical nightmare. Our troops at the DMZ will fight bravely, I’m sure, but they’re too few in number to be much more than a speedbump if NK moves South on the ground in a big way. Add to that millions of now homeless and hungry SK civilians trying to get out of the way on the same roads we’d be needing to bring in more troops. I was told by a SK soldier currently serving his required military service on the DMZ that they are expected to hold for 5 minutes. Not much of a speedbump. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/82 "2010-07-19T16:47:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Seoul has been living with live ammunition ppionted at it for the last 60 years. The internet tells me that Seoul has an area of 606 square kilometers, or 234 square miles. At 15 X 15 miles, and 10 blocks per mile, thats 22,500 square blocks. Even the “6,000 artillery pieces” added in the 90’s could hit each and every block of the city with just four shots apiece. That’s a pretty credible threat, regardless of American air superiority. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/83 "2010-07-19T16:51:50Z")
NETA: The new Koksan M1978/M1989 170mm system that the NKs operate has been observed under wartime conditions (they sold several to the Iranians during the Iran/Iraq war) as having a sustained fire rate of 2 shells every five minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/84 "2010-07-19T16:55:48Z")
Also, and I am just thinking of this now, don’t the North Koreans field MiG-29s? That’s a credible 4.5-generation fighter that will tear apart Strike Eagles loaded down with bombs. Then there’s the known 750+ ZSU-57-2 close-range air defense systems with the optical tracking backup sight that is known to be able to hit low-level supersonic bombers. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/85 "2010-07-19T16:55:52Z")
Status quo: NK people are impoverished and a great many die in famines. NK has no effect on nations other than SK, and its effect on SK is minimal. Eventually the leadership cult dies off and relations normalize. War: a great many people in both SK and NK die. SK is econimically ruined. The war destabilizes the region and sets back western relations with China. I think that despite the ongoing frustration, the solution is not a hammer. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/86 "2010-07-19T18:06:05Z")
This article suggests that we have contingency plans to deal with North Korea if they go Apeshit crazy , but I find it highly unlikely that we would actually do so before the shooting starts. [http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairw/articles/20100715.aspx](http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairw/articles/20100715.aspx) That natural human tendency is to hope for a miracle right up to the point when the shells start flying. It is highly unlikely we could take out **all** of the artillery and the North Koreans do have nukes. It would only take one low yield nuke to cause tens of thousands of casualties. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/87 "2010-07-19T18:23:33Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > This article suggests that we have contingency plans to deal with North Korea if they go Apeshit crazy , but I find it highly unlikely that we would actually do so before the shooting starts. > > [http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairw/articles/20100715.aspx](http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairw/articles/20100715.aspx) > > That natural human tendency is to hope for a miracle right up to the point when the shells start flying. It is highly unlikely we could take out **all** of the artillery and the North Koreans do have nukes. It would only take one low yield nuke to cause tens of thousands of casualties. Free-flight rocket delivery of low-yield nukes is one of those “oh shit” scenarios. You’d have to be suicidal to lob a nuke a few dozen kilometers downrange on a 240mm artillery rocket, but arguably the NK artillery line is already an inherently suicidal defensive position. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/88 "2010-07-19T19:08:13Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Free-flight rocket delivery of low-yield nukes is one of those “oh shit” scenarios. You’d have to be suicidal to lob a nuke a few dozen kilometers downrange… [The Davy Crockett projectile was deployed in South Korea between July 1962 and June 1968. The warhead had selective yields up to 0.25 kilotons. The projectile weighed only 34.5 kg (76 lbs).](http://www.nukestrat.com/korea/koreahistory.htm) ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/89 "2010-07-19T20:17:20Z")
SK needs to do in Seoul what happened to Detroit: Drive people out, make the city worthless, and less attractive as a target. Hell, NK could probably shell Detroit and people wouldn’t even notice. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/90 "2010-07-19T20:37:57Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [The Davy Crockett projectile was deployed in South Korea between July 1962 and June 1968. The warhead had selective yields up to 0.25 kilotons. The projectile weighed only 34.5 kg (76 lbs).](http://www.nukestrat.com/korea/koreahistory.htm) Yeah, the Davy Crockett and it’s 1.25mi range may well have been the world’s most ridiculous suicide weapon. And we thought people would fire it in wartime conditions. Now imagine how little hesitation someone who’s been indoctrinated into the North Korean system would have launching 20 of those from a 240mm rocket launcher that fires them tens of miles downrange. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/91 "2010-07-19T20:59:05Z")
> [@Martiju](#): > > You’re not wrong. The comment on page 1 about the evil propaganda being fed to NK about the US wanting to invade seems somewhat ironic in the context of this thread. It’s like there’s no real comprehension, despite the evidence of the last 10 years, that invasions, wars and conflicts do little to solve problems, but plenty to create them - yet the overriding philosophy still seems to be 'nuke ‘em from orbit’. If it continues like this, at some point, the people screaming “Death to USA” won’t be extremists, or a minority. ---
**Author:** ![Is\_it\_safe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6de8d8/32.png) [@Is\_it\_safe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Is_it_safe)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/92 "2010-07-20T01:07:05Z")
The people of NK might hate and despise their government. But I’d bet they’ll fight against anyone invading their home. You may be familiar with that from a few other foreign adventures ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/93 "2010-07-20T02:02:27Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Of course the difference is they have had decades to prepare. Although our intelligence is well-developed, we do not know what we do not know. We can presume there will be nasty surprises. > > Still, the correlation of forces shows the way to bet… And the correlation of forces says that hundreds of thousands to millions of SK civilians die in the initial artillery fire from NK, since it will take at least a week for the USAF, USN, USMC & SK air assets (with or without nukes), to reduce the arty to ineffectiveness, and Seoul can’t be evacuated during that time. Look at the clusterfuck the evacuation of New Orleans was, prior to Katrina, and that was without arty being added into the mix. That was just a hurricane. No large US city prior to that was ever evacuated since Atlanta, during the Civil War in (I believe) 1864. Not surprising it was done badly, except to those who believe the government is “all powerful”. No large city in Korea has **ever** been evacuated. Didn’t happen in 1950s, hasn’t happened since, ain’t gonna happen now. Us US “militarists” (AKA conservatives) are all, always, in favor of war (at least to hear the lefties characterize us), unless we’ve studied military history, and seen just how ugly it _ **always** _ gets. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/94 "2010-07-20T02:56:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Iraq had the third-largest standing army and well-trained and experienced pilots and soldiers. It had just fought an eight-year war against the (US-equipped) Iranians, remember. > > It wasn’t “systematically chewed up”, by any measure. When NATO forces attacked it was a turkey shoot. It was absolutely chewed up in every sense of the word. The air war started Jan 17th, the ground war started Feb 24th, and the war ended Feb 28th. 10,000 Iraqi troops were killed in the retreat. The 3rd largest standing army in the world was crushed in a 4 day ground war. There wasn’t even an air war confrontation to speak of. North Korea doesn’t have the trained pilots that Iraq had. 7 hrs of flight time means their pilots will get the plane off the ground just long enough to become a target. Without air cover it’s a function of eliminating anti-aircraft positions and then ground assets are completely exposed. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/95 "2010-07-20T05:48:16Z")
> [@Is\_it\_safe](#): > > The people of NK might hate and despise their government. But I’d bet they’ll fight against anyone invading their home. You may be familiar with that from a few other foreign adventures We can’t even be sure they hate their government. They’ve been raised from infancy to view their leaders as gods, or something near, with no access to alternative views. Maybe that kind of cult-of-personality couldn’t really take in Stalin’s Soviet Union or Mao’s China, but NK is much smaller and much more culturally homogeneous and much more easily isolated. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/96 "2010-07-20T05:56:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > North Korea doesn’t have the trained pilots that Iraq had. 7 hrs of flight time means their pilots will get the plane off the ground just long enough to become a target. Without air cover it’s a function of eliminating anti-aircraft positions and then ground assets are completely exposed. “Exposed” in fortified, hardened positions where all they have to do is get off a few shots to fulfill their mission. The bombers couldn’t even reach them before they got off quite a few shots, and it would take a long time to get them all. Just how many bombers do you think we have and are willing and able to put in range? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/97 "2010-07-20T10:16:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Without air cover it’s a function of eliminating anti-aircraft positions and then ground assets are completely exposed. The Iraq war comparison is bogus because the enemy artillery was so far away from anything valuable that it could easily be crushed before it could do any damage. Whatever pieces happened to be hidden, the US just waited for them to start firing, casually triangulated their location, then obliterated them with counterbattery fire. North Korea is different. There are said to be 6,000 artillery pieces in range and targeted at Seoul. The hidden ones can’t be located until they fire. A trained artillery crew can get off something like 5 shots a minute. Do you see the problem here? When the shooting breaks out, a dense urban area is going to soak up something in the neighborhood of 30,000 rounds **per minute**. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/98 "2010-07-20T12:33:59Z")
I guess what profit to win the pennisula but lose your Seoul? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/99 "2010-07-20T13:27:27Z")
Oh. My. Goodness. You win. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/100 "2010-07-20T13:29:12Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I guess what profit to win the pennisula but lose your Seoul? 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094.md?page=6)