# Might invading North Korea be both a moral duty, and a sure thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2010, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094 "2010-07-18T03:28:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/121 "2010-07-22T04:58:50Z")
Dude, this isn’t some television series. Modern artillery–even the stuff that North Korea has–can hit stuff many, many miles away. If North Korea ever does decide to level Seoul, it can level the place easily and quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/122 "2010-07-22T05:05:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The likely scenario is that NK WILL attack at some point as an act of desperation. What makes you think that’s the likely scenario? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/123 "2010-07-22T06:02:38Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Dude, this isn’t some television series. Modern artillery–even the stuff that North Korea has–can hit stuff many, many miles away. If North Korea ever does decide to level Seoul, it can level the place easily and quickly. A conventional artillery piece is going to have a range of about 20 miles. The longest range US rocket artillery is 57 miles. while NK has a lot of artillery they would have to move most of it to be effective. they would be sitting ducks for anti-tank weapons such as the AGM-154A Joint Standoff Weapon. it’s a glide-to-target weapon that deploys 24 anti-tank missiles. A B-52 can carry 12 of these. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/124 "2010-07-22T06:11:22Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > What makes you think that’s the likely scenario? The sinking of a SK boat. [The recent firing of artillery](http://www.asiaone.com/News/Latest+News/Asia/Story/A1Story20100127-194826.html). A SK government that stopped sending aid to NK. A crazy nut-job for a NK leader who has actually managed to isolate his minions and brainwash them. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/125 "2010-07-22T12:07:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > A conventional artillery piece is going to have a range of about 20 miles. The longest range US rocket artillery is 57 miles. while NK has a lot of artillery they would have to move most of it to be effective. they would be sitting ducks for anti-tank weapons such as the AGM-154A Joint Standoff Weapon. it’s a glide-to-target weapon that deploys 24 anti-tank missiles. A B-52 can carry 12 of these. Having known people who worked on the development of the AGM-154A, I’m skeptical of its effectiveness in this scenario given terrain and target size. That having been said, what percentage of North Korea’s 18000 artillery pieces do you think are within range of Seoul right now? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/126 "2010-07-22T13:02:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Artillery is a very limited weapon. It can’t be easily moved without air support. It can in NK. Tunnels, tunnels everywhere, and not a road to bomb ! ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/127 "2010-07-22T13:52:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The sinking of a SK boat. [The recent firing of artillery](http://www.asiaone.com/News/Latest+News/Asia/Story/A1Story20100127-194826.html). A SK government that stopped sending aid to NK. A crazy nut-job for a NK leader who has actually managed to isolate his minions and brainwash them. One at a time: •Boats in disputed territory aren’t major cities in your opponent’s territory. •You gotta test your guns somewhere. •The two countries are arguing, shit like this has happened for decades •Crazy and suicidal are not synonymous. Deterrence has worked for 50 years. There’s no credible evidence it’s failing now. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2010, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/128 "2010-07-23T01:51:18Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > One at a time: > > •Boats in disputed territory aren’t major cities in your opponent’s territory. > •You gotta test your guns somewhere. > •The two countries are arguing, shit like this has happened for decades > •Crazy and suicidal are not synonymous. > > Deterrence has worked for 50 years. There’s no credible evidence it’s failing now. Sinking a boat is not an argument, it’s a hostile act. The new [Director of National Intelligence](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10707396) recently discussed this. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/129 "2010-07-23T01:59:51Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > It can in NK. Tunnels, tunnels everywhere, and not a road to bomb ! We don’t bomb roads anymore. the weapon I described seeks out it’s target after deployment. Modern warfare has evolved to a standoff and deliver method of attack. It requires air superiority which NK lacks. IMO, NK will fall under it’s own weight. Communication with the outside world would hasten the event. If they attempt to invade SK it will resemble Iraq’s attack of Kuwait. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/130 "2010-07-23T02:06:05Z")
The thing is the PDRK is losing, and the leadership finally realizes it. Will they lose peacefully? Somehow I doubt it. Every year they get weaker. If they strike this year, they have a better chance than if they strike next year. OTOH, perhaps Kim Jung Jong Il would be willing to die quietly and slowly rather than going out with a bang. In that case, the danger would be greatest as the new kid tries to consolidate power by showing he has balls. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2010, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/131 "2010-07-23T03:28:48Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > The thing is the PDRK is losing, and the leadership finally realizes it. Will they lose peacefully? Somehow I doubt it. Every year they get weaker. If they strike this year, they have a better chance than if they strike next year. > > OTOH, perhaps Kim Jung Jong Il would be willing to die quietly and slowly rather than going out with a bang. In that case, the danger would be greatest as the new kid tries to consolidate power by showing he has balls. At some point the Soviet Union realized they had lost control of Poland and East Germany. The dominos fell quickly and without a shot fired. what it comes down to is how crazy Kim Jong Il is. Considering he once kidnapped someone to make movies for him I would not be surprised if he attacked. Waging war has often been used as a way of staying in power. All you need to do is convince the people that their enemies need to be attacked. He’s done a good job vilifying everybody in that respect. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2010, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/132 "2010-07-23T07:07:29Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > The thing is the PDRK is losing, and the leadership finally realizes it. Will they lose peacefully? Somehow I doubt it. Every year they get weaker. If they strike this year, they have a better chance than if they strike next year. It’s known. It’s been known for years. The elites can go on holiday in China, and _everybody_ can tap into South Korean television and radio. They know. And they haven’t attacked yet. The leadership isn’t suicidal —it’s not going to happen. **Magiver** , the North Koreans have been launching the occasional attack on South Korea for ages. There was the bombing of a South Korean airliner, an attempt to assassinate the South Korean president (prime minister, perhaps? They have both), an attempt to blow up South Korean bigwigs, a gadzillion attempts to tunnel under the DMZ (they were “coal mines”, i.e. the walls were painted black), soldiers killed along the DMZ,… Is destroying a ship in a disputed region really any different? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/133 "2010-07-26T02:44:57Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > It’s known. It’s been known for years. The elites can go on holiday in China, and _everybody_ can tap into South Korean television and radio. They know. And they haven’t attacked yet. The leadership isn’t suicidal —it’s not going to happen. > > **Magiver** , the North Koreans have been launching the occasional attack on South Korea for ages. There was the bombing of a South Korean airliner, an attempt to assassinate the South Korean president (prime minister, perhaps? They have both), an attempt to blow up South Korean bigwigs, a gadzillion attempts to tunnel under the DMZ (they were “coal mines”, i.e. the walls were painted black), soldiers killed along the DMZ,… > > Is destroying a ship in a disputed region really any different? No, the single act isn’t different but a continuous reduction of resources makes war an option to desperate people who are convinced it’s SK’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/134 "2010-07-27T22:30:40Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > It’s known. It’s been known for years. The elites can go on holiday in China, and _everybody_ can tap into South Korean television and radio. They know. And they haven’t attacked yet. The leadership isn’t suicidal —it’s not going to happen. Are you claiming many people in the PDRK can tap into POK TV and radio? That is simply not true. [TThis story](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128795368&f=1001&sc=tw&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter) says “a few hundred” PDRK artillery pieces can hit the South Korean capital. ---
**Author:** ![bullrun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@bullrun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bullrun)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/135 "2010-07-28T21:35:07Z")
Invading North Korea is a touchy proposition. We could (and probably would) win eventually but they would be a strong oponnent. They are brainwashed. The people are in dire straights and always are; however the military enjoys a better standard of living and are held in great esteem compared to everyone else. Therefore the military of NK would be fighting for a different version (in their minds) of North Korea than the average peasant. Not to mention…they apparently have nuclear capability. We would basically have to nuke their nuclear sites first before invading or run the chance of being wiped out on the battlefield by nuclear weapons. We could , of course, warn them that if they used nuclear weapons…, then we would. However…that does not really deter a maniac. Especially one that sees himself losing and about to fall. Then there is the China question. I do not believe they would set back and watch us roll into the North. They would ‘step-in’ in one way or another. Even though they would secretly applaud the fall of the current North Koren idiotic leader…they still want it in their sphere of influence. Then there is the ‘obama’ question. He does not have the nerve to invade anyone regardless of the provocations. The question is; "will we be able to keep south Korea free?’ The North Koreans will probably invade the South soon enough. The question is what will obama do. The North Koreans are betting he will do nothing…and they are probably right. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/136 "2010-07-28T23:07:51Z")
And if the US were to employ a nuclear weapon in North Korea, do you think China would not assist–as in respond in kind–their ally somehow? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/137 "2010-07-28T23:38:53Z")
> [@bullrun](#): > > Then there is the ‘obama’ question. He does not have the nerve to invade anyone regardless of the provocations. Have you looked into the president’s eyes, like W did with Pooty poot, or are you just making baseless accusations while hiding behind the anonymity of the internet here? Plase clarify, if you have the fortitude to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/138 "2010-07-29T00:22:01Z")
> [@bullrun](#): > > Invading North Korea is a touchy proposition. We could (and probably would) win eventually but they would be a strong oponnent. Win what? A Pyrrhic victory is not a win. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/139 "2010-07-29T00:55:21Z")
Americans have been largely unmoved by the death of (by conservative estimates) 100,000+ Iraqi civilians. Who really gives a shit about the South Korean civilians? ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094/140 "2010-07-29T01:20:15Z")
The South Koreans. You’d be basically having to take them on too or at least be losing them as a cooperative force if you invaded NK without them agreeing to it, as any attack on NK would be starting from their country and require preparation there first. Otara [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/might-invading-north-korea-be-both-a-moral-duty-and-a-sure-thing/547094.md?page=8)