# Mig's in Air Force training **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 1, 2001, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/migs-in-air-force-training/64006 "2001-05-01T23:42:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![archmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@archmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/archmichael)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2001, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/migs-in-air-force-training/64006/1 "2001-05-01T23:42:08Z")
I have no military experience, but I do have a lot of interest in the subject of military history. As I understand it when pilots go through dogfight training, US planes that have similarities to Russian jets are used. Now we have the Russian military basically bankrupt. They are selling rides to rich dot-commers. Larry Ellison tried to buy a Fulcrum. Is the US military trying to buy some Mig’s to use them in training? Would it take too much work to have a US pilot learn a Russian plane? Thanks in advance. ArchMichael ---
**Author:** ![Nabber4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecccb3/32.png) [@Nabber4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nabber4)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2001, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/migs-in-air-force-training/64006/2 "2001-05-02T00:30:57Z")
I can tell you for certain that we have had Mig-21 Fishbed and Mig-23 Flogger fighters for YEARS. Back when we were cozy with Hussein, we got our first up close look at a Mig-29 Fulcrum, and then when the Soviet Bloc collapsed, we were able to get basically as many as we wanted. Training takes place NW of Las Vegas, in areas that even most military personnel can’t get into. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2001, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/migs-in-air-force-training/64006/3 "2001-05-02T00:41:04Z")
No first-hand experience about the U.S. using Russian fighters for training, but my gut tells me that we are not going to buy ex-Soviet fighters for training. Fighter aircraft require a lot of maintenance. It’s much easier and more cost effective to continue to use F-5s, F-16s and the like. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2001, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/migs-in-air-force-training/64006/4 "2001-05-02T03:39:49Z")
I’ve been away from it for a while, but the agressor squadron that topgun trains against used to fly F-5 Tigers and A-4 Skyhawks to simulate MiG fighters. I recall an incendent in the 80s where a high air force officer crashed a MiG-21 the AF had to admit they had a few captured planes. There was even a plan for a time for LTV to build MiG-21s for training purposed but nothing came of it. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2001, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/migs-in-air-force-training/64006/5 "2001-05-02T04:20:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nabber4 \* > \*\*Training takes place NW of Las Vegas, in areas that even most military personnel can’t get into. \*\* Nice oblique reference to that area. Did an exercise there, interesting targets (I was Stinger Air Defense during Red Flag, trained to ID certain targets). But the OPFOR (Opposition Forces) guys fly the aforementioned A-4 Skyhawk, F-5 Tigers, and maybe the F-20. Extremely nimble aircraft. The operational opposition squadrons do not fly the Ruskie planes. As far as I know. But I can categorically say, I can neither confirm nor deny the presence of any… well, you get the idea. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2001, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/migs-in-air-force-training/64006/6 "2001-05-02T04:47:04Z")
They don’t use Russkie craft, they use _alien craft_! That’s why the place is so secret. Reports of the aggressor squadrons using MiGs are garbled reports of alien craft called 'Mog’s. They also used mindwave weapons at that location NW of Las Vegas (Las Vegas being Ground Zero for the Alien Infiltration Force, hence all of the Elvis clones…ah…‘impersonators’), and a side-effect of the badly-shielded rays was the TV series ‘The Mog Squad’. No, really. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![archmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@archmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/archmichael)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2001, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/migs-in-air-force-training/64006/7 "2001-05-02T04:58:50Z")
Cool. Thanks for all the information. I knew that they used US planes in the past. Hearing about the manueverability of the Su-37 it didn’t seem like we would have anything that can simulate it properly. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2001, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/migs-in-air-force-training/64006/8 "2001-05-02T08:13:27Z")
FWIW, the German Luftwaffe has had 24 Mig-29s in the arsenal since the German reunification in 1989. One could very well imagine that a US pilot or two has been around to check the performance and abilities. Anyway, the Germans are phasing them out shortly, as they’re a logistical nightmare. And seeing as the Germans took over all the installations, spare parts, trained mechanics etc., I guess the costs involved in keeping planes like these flying on a regular basis must be WAY higher for the US. Not cost-effective. S. Norman ---
**Author:** ![Chas.E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e99b99/32.png) [@Chas.E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chas.E)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2001, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/migs-in-air-force-training/64006/9 "2001-05-02T09:51:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by archmichael \* > **Larry Ellison tried to buy a Fulcrum.** FYI, he currently owns the MIG-29. He said he wants to buzz Bill Gates’ home at supersonic speed and break all the windows with a sonic boom. Hell, I’d pay for his jet fuel if I could watch him do it! Anyway, it is not hard to acquire a used MIG if you have about $2million. There are several privately owned MIGs in the US. From what I heard, they mostly came from the Polish Air Force (no I’m not kidding). ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2001, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/migs-in-air-force-training/64006/10 "2001-05-02T09:58:02Z")
Why would you need every single type of MIG? Anyone who’s seen _Iron Eagle_ can tell you that every Commie Jet Fighter looks exactly like an [F4 Phantom](http://www.ugamedia.com/f4.htm). 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2001, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/migs-in-air-force-training/64006/11 "2001-05-02T10:41:08Z")
Coldie, That was Iron Eagle 2. In the first Iron Eagle they used French Mirages. Get it right. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2001, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/migs-in-air-force-training/64006/12 "2001-05-02T12:20:57Z")
> [@](#): > > and maybe the F-20. The F-20 never made it into production. From [the F-20 Tigershark Homepage](http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MarkWade/f20top.htm): > [@](#): > > The F-20 Tigershark was designed, built and tested by the Northrop Corporation in the early 1980’s. Three prototypes were built, of which two crashed during sales demonstrations and one now resides at the Los Angeles County Museum of Science. I used to see them at Edwards AFB when I drove on the flightline. The F-20 was a promising design, but there were no buyers. The USAF bought the F-16 instead. Foreign governments wanted to get the same airplane that the USAF bought. (Probably, “If the F-20 isn’t good enough for them, why shoud _we_ buy it”?) ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2001, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/migs-in-air-force-training/64006/13 "2001-05-02T21:23:47Z")
Let’s see … 12 **F-21A Kfir** fighters (an Israeli version of the French Mirage V) were used by the US Navy, and 13 by the USMC, between 1985 and 1989 as “aggressor aircraft”. These were returned to Israel in 1989 and replaced by F-5Es from the USAF. At present budget cuts mean the US Navy Fighter Weapons School only has aging F-14s and F/A-18s for aggressor training. The USAF’s secretive “Red Hat” squadron allegedly flew captured Soviet aircraft at Groom Lake and were disbanded following the end of the Cold War. However, there’s little in the way of hard facts about that - it’s usually the usual UFO conspiracy websites that report it, along with some speculation that captured aircraft were given temporary designations - F-113, F-114, F-115 and F-116 (although one site I read thinks this would have been a bit of a giveaway to aviation buffs). **MiG-29** fighters from Germany’s JG-73 have visited Nellis AFB in the past for joint aggressor training. ---
**Author:** ![Nabber4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecccb3/32.png) [@Nabber4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nabber4)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/migs-in-air-force-training/64006/14 "2001-05-03T01:36:41Z")
Archmichael, and anyone else: Please rule out of consideration anyone who states that it’s just not logical to fly MiGs because of cost considerations. They just don’t get it. Cost is no object. If it were, that also means that we shouldn’t operate the SA-10 SAM that we bought, because down the road we’ll have to do maintenance on it, and gee, that’s just so expensive… I promise you, there are a considerable number of MiGs out there. Aggressor training is obviously only one part of why you would be flying MiGs. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/migs-in-air-force-training/64006/15 "2001-05-03T03:18:56Z")
**Nabber4:** My take on the OP was whether we use MiGs as a major part of the air combat training curriculum. The U.S. military certainly does have MiGs (and a lot of other Eastern Bloc materiél), but I don’t think they are common for that use. I think that they are used more for evaluation than anything else. Cost _is_ a consideration. Another factor (perhaps the greater one) is availability. An exercise is much more likely to be cancelled because a critical part cannot be obtained for an Eastern aircraft than for a Western one. If you have a reputable cite that indicates Eastern aircraft are routinely being used for aggressor training, I’ll reconsider. ---
**Author:** ![archmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@archmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/archmichael)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/migs-in-air-force-training/64006/16 "2001-05-03T04:19:12Z")
Oh, forgot to say welcome to the board Nabber4. Now if we can only get him to divulge some more secret stuff. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Trucido](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@Trucido](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trucido)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/migs-in-air-force-training/64006/17 "2001-05-03T04:33:57Z")
Little bit off point, but the US military certainly does own and operate some Mi-24 Hind helicopters. Pictures? Check this out. [http://www.af.mil/photos/helicopters\_mi24\_cutlines.shtml](http://www.af.mil/photos/helicopters_mi24_cutlines.shtml) I recall hearing (this may just be rubbish) that at one time this was the largest fully operational Hind unit in the world, as our Russian comrades did not take such good care of theirs. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/migs-in-air-force-training/64006/18 "2001-05-03T08:13:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nabber4 \* > \*\*Archmichael, and anyone else: > Please rule out of consideration anyone who states that it’s just not logical to fly MiGs because of cost considerations. They just don’t get it. Cost is no object. > \*\* And welcome to the board, Nabber. Sorry, should have been clearer: Obviously, you’d want to fly the Migs to figure out performance characteristics, radar signatures, weapons performance etc. etc. Still, with the cost per flying hour higher (and, I’m willing to bet, **way** higher) for a Mig than for an A-4 or F-5, I presume a smart move would be to fly the Migs to figure out what they can do, then instruct your aggressor pilots to simulate those characteristics. Ehm - that’s what **Johnny L.A.** said. Well, I agree with him. S. Norman ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/migs-in-air-force-training/64006/19 "2001-05-03T12:23:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\*Why would you need every single type of MIG? Anyone who’s seen _Iron Eagle_ can tell you that every Commie Jet Fighter looks exactly like an [F4 Phantom](http://www.ugamedia.com/f4.htm). 😃 \*\* OK, lessee … the MiG’s in “Top Gun” AND “Hot Shots” looked a lot like T-38’s (although the reason the modern US Navy was flying 50’s model British Folland Gnats in “Hot Shots” was never explained). In “Jet Pilot”, John Wayne got his first good look at the plane Soviet defector Janet Leigh flew (and you know where that’s headed), looking suspiciously like a T-33, and commented “So that’s the new Mig, huh? Looks a lot like one of ours”. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/migs-in-air-force-training/64006/20 "2001-05-03T13:05:56Z")
> [@](#): > > OK, lessee … the MiG’s in “Top Gun” AND “Hot Shots” looked a lot like T-38’s F-5s, the fighter version of the T-38. I was feeling quite smug, having grown up in and near (then-)NAS Miramar – home of Top Gun, when I saw _Top Gun_. “Ha! It’s an F-5 and they’re flying against [VF-126!](http://members.aol.com/scottyv2/160795.jpg)” thought I. Oh, well. I guess “ya uses whats ya can gets”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/migs-in-air-force-training/64006.md?page=2)