# Mikaela Lauren kisses Cecilia Braekhus -- sexual assault? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294 "2017-10-19T15:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/41 "2017-10-19T17:41:08Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So the only remaining question (assuming that mens rea is a condition of this crime, which I believe it is) is whether Lauren did or should have reasonably anticipated that the action would be unwelcome. You forgot the question of whether kissing is considered a component of sexual assault. I don’t know of any jurisdiction in the US where it is, regardless of the intent behind the kiss. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/42 "2017-10-19T17:43:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Interesting. > > Should she be charged? Did the person assaulted ask for charges to be brought? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/43 "2017-10-19T17:52:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Did the assaulter intend for any person to be aroused or gratified by the grab? The audience, if any? The victim? > > If not, then no, but since it would be almost impossible to convince the tribunal of that, it’s a weak distinction. You’re not interested in what the actual crime is vs what a jury can be convinced of? I just think it’s interesting that you think that intentionally causing someone sexual distress/shame/discomfort isn’t necessarily sexual assault. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/44 "2017-10-19T17:57:24Z")
This being a wrestling event, I have no doubt the kiss was scripted out and both parties had agreed to it. But accepting the premise that it was unscripted, then yes it should be regarded as sexual assault. Kissing somebody that you know doesn’t want to be kissed by you should be regarded as sexual assault. I’ll note that this is my opinion of what the law should be. I don’t know where this event occurred and what the local laws are. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/45 "2017-10-19T17:59:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I meant to say the words I wrote, no more and no less. If anything was “implied” it was implied by you. I’m sorry if my direct quote from the official U.S. Department of Justice website wasn’t up to your high standards but, then again, I thought we were posting on a message board, not bringing a case before The Court. We are posting on a message board, and this is – to your apparent surprise – not a license to use poorly supported arguments or sources. The website is “official,” but the page is written for different purposes than the thread is. The page, complete with its errors of grammar, seems intended for a general introduction to the topic of sexual assault; this thread is intended to debate the more precise contours between simple and sexual assault. I’ve noticed that your ready defense to exposure of poor argument or questionable factual citation sources is to piously proclaim that this is merely a message board, as though this somehow absolves you of any errors of precision or fact you have offered up. I have no idea why you believe that this message board, in particular, with its mission of fighting ignorance, would somehow insulate your argument from such attacks. Perhaps your memoirs will make this mystery clearer. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/46 "2017-10-19T18:00:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The second. And I agree that a breast “honk,” done in that context, may not be sexual assault either, depending on the intention of the honker. I think that’s a fine distinction and one that I’m comfortable with. My only concern is that there is a category of battery, generally perpetrated by men against women, that does not seem to have a sexual (in the sense of arousal) component, but is done to exercise power over the victim in a way that feels fundamental gendered. (Call it “sexist assault”?). For example, I don’t think you slap the cocktail waitress’s butt because it arouses or sexually gratifies you. But it feels more “sexual” that simple battery. (Or, for that matter, when you slap the butt of your male football teammate after a good play). But all attempts at line drawing invite murky borders. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > According to the [U.S. Department of Justice](https://www.justice.gov/ovw/sexual-assault), Sexual Assault is “any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient.” Nothing in there about intent or arousal on the part of the assaulter or the victim. But what is “sexual contact or behavior”? What makes it “sexual”? Is it the inherent nature of the action? Or the intent? Or something else? It reminds me of the debates over whether or not parents should kiss their children on the lips. Google tells me that the [UCMJ defines “sexual contact” for the purposes of sexual assault](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/920) as: “(A) touching, or causing another person to touch, either directly or through the clothing, the genitalia, anus, groin, breast, inner thigh, or buttocks of any person, with an intent to abuse, humiliate, or degrade any person; or (B) any touching, or causing another person to touch, either directly or through the clothing, any body part of any person, if done with an intent to arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person.” That seems like a reasonable rule to me. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/47 "2017-10-19T18:00:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > This being a wrestling event. . . Check again. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/48 "2017-10-19T18:03:44Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > Google tells me that the [UCMJ defines “sexual contact” for the purposes of sexual assault](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/920) as: “(A) touching, or causing another person to touch, either directly or through the clothing, the genitalia, anus, groin, breast, inner thigh, or buttocks of any person, with an intent to abuse, humiliate, or degrade any person; or (B) any touching, or causing another person to touch, either directly or through the clothing, any body part of any person, if done with an intent to arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person.” > > That seems like a reasonable rule to me. I have no problem with that rule, either. (Noting that the definition is “sexual contact,” and the definition will then be used to define assault as unwanted.) ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/49 "2017-10-19T18:06:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > this thread is intended to debate the more precise contours between simple and sexual assault. Again, someone is going to have to post actual statutes to do that. And since you started this thread… ETA: I just saw that Falchion posted from the UCMJ. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/50 "2017-10-19T18:07:06Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > This being a wrestling event, I have no doubt the kiss was scripted out and both parties had agreed to it. Boxing event actually, although the pre-fight activities aren’t much different from wrestling, but often not rehearsed. To the OP, I don’t know what the law views this as but I don’t consider this a sexual assault because of the lack of sexual intent, or an assault at all because of the nature of this kind of event. If you consider to be even a simple battery I see no damages. Neither of the parties could be described as minding their own business when one accosted the other. I don’t think the laws intended to be applied in this kind of circumstance. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/51 "2017-10-19T18:07:37Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Again, someone is going to have to post actual statutes to do that. And since you started this thread… See post 46. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/52 "2017-10-19T18:09:27Z")
The ‘victim’ will get to deliver her own kind of justice and we get to watch. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/53 "2017-10-19T18:13:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > See post 46. I posted an ETA before I noticed this post of yours. However, you wrote what I quoted in post 45. Why go this far in a thread without quoting _some_ statute when you want to discuss what is, and not what should be? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/54 "2017-10-19T18:14:31Z")
Its 1. Battery by any reasonable definition of the term. 2. Probably sexual assault 3. Should not and probably will not be charged as sexual assault 4. No 3 would have a different second part is the kisser was a man 5. Which illustrates a major problem with defining and dealing with assault, harassment etc a lot of it turns on the perception of the party involved.The exact same action may be perceived by a passive party depending on the maker as being either a sexual assualt or amusing or an annoyance. I remember a seminar a couple of years ago on online harassment where it was pointed out that males receive many more threats online than women, but men\* are more likely to perceive it as banter or annoyance. To illustrate he showed us two videos, one of Richard Dawkins reading hate e-mails /tweets and one of some actress. The later was extremely upset, the former was laughing even though objectively what the former got was much worse. \*And before you jump at me, yes I am sure they are women who laugh off/men who get upset, its a general trend. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/55 "2017-10-19T18:14:42Z")
Apparently this weekend Braekhus and Lauren are going to enter a ring and pummel each other with their fists, trying to knock the other one unconscious. I’m not sure exactly what logic / legal protection applies that doesn’t make those acts “assault”, but is it possible that that same logic / legal protection extends to their pre-fight press conference? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/56 "2017-10-19T18:16:02Z")
FTR, this is the second time Lauren has done this. > **[Mikaela Lauren shocks opponent Cecilia Braekhus with a kiss](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/boxing/article-4989496/Mikaela-Lauren-shocks-Cecilia-Braekhus-kiss.html)** > > The two women stared down ahead of their world welterweight title contest in Stokke, Norway, with Lauren breaking the gaze to kiss her opponent on the lips as the mind games continued. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/57 "2017-10-19T18:16:37Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > ETA: I just saw that Falchion posted from the UCMJ. There’s also [Title 18](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2246), which defines “sexual contact” as “the intentional touching, either directly or through the clothing, of the genitalia, anus, groin, breast, inner thigh, or buttocks of any person with an intent to abuse, humiliate, harass, degrade, or arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person” which I think is narrower that the UCMJ definition (since the touching of something other than an enumerated body party even with an intent to arouse would not be sexual contact). It also defines “sexual act” as essentially any contact between a penis and an orifice, regardless of intent. But penetration by anything else, only if done “with an intent to abuse, humiliate, harass, degrade, or arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person.” (I think that it is reasonable to view penetrating someone with a penis to be an inherently sexual act. I might be inclined to adopt a stricter rule regarding genital penetration than the law seems to provide). ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/58 "2017-10-19T18:17:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Interesting. > > Should she be charged? No. It’s impractical and ridiculous to consider every instance of a unwanted touch assault or unwanted kiss sexual assault. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/59 "2017-10-19T18:20:17Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Apparently this weekend Braekhus and Lauren are going to enter a ring and pummel each other with their fists, trying to knock the other one unconscious. I’m not sure exactly what logic / legal protection applies that doesn’t make those acts “assault”, but is it possible that that same logic / legal protection extends to their pre-fight press conference? The legal protection is that both are willing participants in a legal sporting event. James Butler was jailed after this post-fight punch: [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6VyxBUen3A) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/60 "2017-10-19T18:23:49Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Apparently this weekend Braekhus and Lauren are going to enter a ring and pummel each other with their fists, trying to knock the other one unconscious. I’m not sure exactly what logic / legal protection applies that doesn’t make those acts “assault”, but is it possible that that same logic / legal protection extends to their pre-fight press conference? Their fight is sanctioned. It is an activity regulated by the state. That’s what makes the difference. Even if they mutually agreed to the fight outside of that regulation they could both be charged with assault, and further crimes. The pre-fight activities aren’t covered under the law that way, but I don’t think the assault and battery laws are intended to cover this situation where two people about to engage in a legally sanctioned fight voluntarily stand inches away from each other and some simple harmless contact is made. However, the law probably doesn’t have such an exception and prosecution could result, but one would expect the prosecutorial discretion to prevent that. It would be quite a different matter if one of them was injured. Other gray areas would involve injury due to a foul in a sanctioned boxing match. Such things could easily be dismissed as accidentally occurring in the heat of combat, not intentional in nature, but suppose it’s not just a low blow or rabbit punch but a boxer picking up a stool, running across the ring and bashing the other boxer in the head with it. That would be far outside of the activities allowed in a boxing match, not just a matter of stepping a bit over the line. I don’t know how it worked out but calls for prosecution of been made in hockey games for intentional injuries serious injuries. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294.md?page=4)