# Mikaela Lauren kisses Cecilia Braekhus -- sexual assault? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294 "2017-10-19T15:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/101 "2017-10-19T23:29:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The person to claim the necessity of “official definitions,” was Czarcasm. He (and perhaps you) seem to have conflated “official” with “detailed.” > > I am asking to explore the precise contours of what makes an assault “sexual.” This doesn’t require statutes, or officialdom, but merely specificity. That doesn’t at all answer what the sarcasm was for. He clearly had no problem finding post 4. Whatever. I’m not getting anywhere with you pretending that you don’t understand my questions. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/102 "2017-10-19T23:32:27Z")
How does Cecilia Braekhus feel about the incident? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/103 "2017-10-19T23:36:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > An act that I’d call sexual assault is one done with the intent to intent to sexually arouse or gratify someone, involving touching of breast, groin, or buttocks, or the clothing covering those areas. The [UK legal code](http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/soa_2003_and_soa_1956/#a11) on the other hand does seem to include unwanted kissing under the heading of sexual assault. I don’t have a _really_ strong opinion on the matter, but do kind of lean towards the UK definition rather than yours. Howabout you? Do you think there is a strong argument to be made that one view is superior to another? Or in other words are you _philosophically_ committed to your version or do you just regard it neutrally as the law of the land? If tomorrow it was proposed that Maryland change their sexual assault/battery laws to include unwanted kisses would you have a strong objection or would you just shrug your shoulders? Just curious( no gotchas here ). ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/104 "2017-10-19T23:47:25Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > The [UK legal code](http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/soa_2003_and_soa_1956/#a11) on the other hand does seem to include unwanted kissing under the heading of sexual assault. It says: > [@](#): > > Touching includes touching amounting to penetration e.g. kissing. But kissing on the lips without lips ore tongue entering a mouth? I wonder if they’re including all types of kissing. So kissing is a form of touching. Regarding touching: > [@](#): > > Touching is widely defined and includes with any part of the body, or with anything else, and can be through clothing. In _R v H (Karl Anthony) [2005]_ 2 Cr. App. R. 9, the Court of Appeal held that the touching of an individual’s clothing was sufficient to amount to ‘touching’ for the purposes of section 3. Where touching was not automatically by its nature sexual, it was possible to ascertain whether the touching had been sexual by determining whether by its nature it might have been sexual and if so whether in the circumstances the purpose had in fact been sexual. It says touching is not automatically sexual. Obviously, not all kissing is sexual. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2017, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/105 "2017-10-19T23:57:48Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Obviously, not all kissing is sexual. I wouldn’t argue otherwise. Just that it _can be_. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/106 "2017-10-20T00:02:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The person to claim the necessity of “official definitions,” was Czarcasm. He (and perhaps you) seem to have conflated “official” with “detailed.” > > I am asking to explore the precise contours of what makes an assault “sexual.” This doesn’t require statutes, or officialdom, but merely specificity. I realize you’re probably getting overwhelmed by the responses directed towards you but I would like your views on what I posted in #91. I’ll repeat it here: > [@](#): > > I’m pretty sure this wouldn’t be legally classified as assault in New York. In NY, there has to be either physical injury or the intent to cause physical injury for it to be an assault. I don’t see how kissing a person, even against their will, would meet this standard. > > I think the relevant crime in New York would be Forcible Touching: “A person is guilty of forcible touching when such person intentionally, and for no legitimate purpose forcibly touches the sexual or other intimate parts of another person for the purpose of degrading or abusing such person, or for the purpose of gratifying the actor’s sexual desire.” I’ll admit I don’t know if kissing somebody on the mouth without their consent qualifies as a violation of this law but I think it would be a reasonable interpretation of the law. I feel these are reasonable laws. They make a distinction between assault, which is a violent crime, and sexual assault, which is a sexual crime. I realize I’ve been using sexual assault in past posts and now I’m talking about Forcible Touching. I don’t see that as a significant distinction. You could just as easily rename the crime something like Sexual Assault in the Third Degree and it would be the same crime. (For the record, there is a crime of Sexual Assault in New York but it’s the most severe level of sexual crime. It’s essentially Rape in the First Degree with aggravating factors. Which is obviously not applicable here.) ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/107 "2017-10-20T00:05:41Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > I wouldn’t argue otherwise. Just that it _can be_. Got ya. But I still wonder if the “e.g. Kissing” would include kissing that doesn’t go beyond lips on lips when penetration was mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/108 "2017-10-20T00:18:11Z")
It’s also interesting that New York’s definition of “forcible touching” includes “…or for purpose of degrading or abusing that person”. I think we can all agree that everything that goes on in a pre-fight staredown is for purpose of degrading the other person, no? The question then would just be whether the lips are a “sexual or intimate part”. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/109 "2017-10-20T00:56:03Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > How does Cecilia Braekhus feel about the incident? See the pics in post 56 ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/110 "2017-10-20T01:03:44Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The question then would just be whether the lips are a “sexual or intimate part”. Not when it comes to New York’s unlawful surveillance laws. I would assume the definition wouldn’t change for forcible touching. > [@](#): > > 3. “Sexual or other intimate parts” means the human male or female genitals, pubic area or buttocks, or the female breast below the top of the nipple, and shall include such part or parts which are covered only by an undergarment. [http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/penal-law/pen-sect-250-40.html](http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/penal-law/pen-sect-250-40.html) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/111 "2017-10-20T01:32:26Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It’s also interesting that New York’s definition of “forcible touching” includes “…or for purpose of degrading or abusing that person”. I think we can all agree that everything that goes on in a pre-fight staredown is for purpose of degrading the other person, no? The question then would just be whether the lips are a “sexual or intimate part”. I wouldn’t agree. It’s actually intended to throw the other person off their game. In most cases not personal at all. It’s a psych, a tactic they are both engaging in. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/112 "2017-10-20T04:00:58Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I wouldn’t agree. It’s actually intended to throw the other person off their game. In most cases not personal at all. It’s a psych, a tactic they are both engaging in. Killing their mother would probably also throw them off their game. But you’re not allowed to do it. Something that would otherwise be a crime doesn’t become legal just because you’re doing it for the sake of winning a boxing match. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/113 "2017-10-20T04:44:59Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Killing their mother would probably also throw them off their game. But you’re not allowed to do it. > > Something that would otherwise be a crime doesn’t become legal just because you’re doing it for the sake of winning a boxing match. But this is not committing an act which is clearly a crime. This is a situation where two people have agreed to a confrontation taken to the edge of the line of allowable acts, the crime of assault is not defined for that purpose. This is more like two people on a date and one leans in and kisses the other without asking for express permission first. In that the results are harmless outside of the agreed upon activities it is a misunderstanding, not a criminal act. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/114 "2017-10-20T05:52:54Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > But this is not committing an act which is clearly a crime. This is a situation where two people have agreed to a confrontation taken to the edge of the line of allowable acts, the crime of assault is not defined for that purpose. This is more like two people on a date and one leans in and kisses the other without asking for express permission first. In that the results are harmless outside of the agreed upon activities it is a misunderstanding, not a criminal act. That’s a pretty bad argument. Punching your opponent in the face is a normal part of a boxing match. Kissing your opponent in the face is not. So the fact that somebody agree to fight a boxing match with you doesn’t mean they’re agreeing to be kissed by you. For the record, punching somebody is not considered an acceptable part of a date. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/115 "2017-10-20T09:47:47Z")
Well, I for one am shocked - shocked! - to see that no one has bothered to look up what Norwegian law actually has to say on the matter. From here: > [@](#): > > **§ 297. Seksuell handling uten samtykke.** > > Med bot eller fengsel inntil 1 år straffes den som foretar seksuell handling med noen som ikke har samtykket i det. OK, but are unwanted kisses filed under “seksuelle handlinger”? As it turns out, the answer is [yes](https://www.stortinget.no/no/Saker-og-publikasjoner/Publikasjoner/Innstillinger/Odelstinget/2008-2009/inno-200809-073/7/#a1.5): > [@](#): > > **7.1.5 Seksuell handling uten samtykke** > > Straffeloven 1902 rammer den som foretar seksuell handling med noen som ikke har samtykket i det. Seksuell handling er betegnelsen på berøringer med seksuelt tilsnitt, som for eksempel kyssing, beføling innenfor eller utenpå klærne. Strafferammen er bøter eller fengsel inntil 1 år. That settles that, then, so y’all can stop quoting all kinds of utterly irrelevant foreign laws - be it from the U.S., the U.K., Botswana, Uruguay, Nepal or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/116 "2017-10-20T10:26:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **TriPolar** : > > I wouldn’t agree. It’s actually intended to throw the other person off their game. In most cases not personal at all. It’s a psych, a tactic they are both engaging in. It’s intended to throw the other person off their game by personally debasing them. **Steken** , I assume that the reason nobody else quoted Norwegian law is that most of us don’t know Norwegian. Could you provide a translation? I’m guessing that “for eksempel kyssing” means “for example kissing”, but that would be a lot more useful with the context that I’m not getting. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/117 "2017-10-20T10:47:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > “Someone,” can be any person: the victim, the actor, or even a third party. > > But I don’t agree this was done to arouse anyone. I think it was done to fluster and intimidate. What is it about this kiss in this context that would make it flustering and intimidating? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/118 "2017-10-20T12:26:42Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That’s a pretty bad argument. Punching your opponent in the face is a normal part of a boxing match. Kissing your opponent in the face is not. So the fact that somebody agree to fight a boxing match with you doesn’t mean they’re agreeing to be kissed by you. > > For the record, punching somebody is not considered an acceptable part of a date. I’m not clear about what you are saying. Do you think a boxer should be disqualified in a match for kissing his opponent? Kissing is a likely action to be encountered in a date, and harmless contact, not to mention some more harmful contact is a likely action to be encountered in a pre-fight stare down. It’s a dramatic situation, and a staged event, a kiss is slightly crossing the line, far less serious than fouls that are can occur in a boxing match that wouldn’t disqualify a boxer. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/119 "2017-10-20T12:28:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It’s intended to throw the other person off their game by personally debasing them. The personal part is a matter of perception. The debasing applies to every other aspect of the pre-fight stare down. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294/120 "2017-10-20T12:32:36Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Hardly. And that’s the problem with the a-kiss-is-sexual-assault crowd. It cheapens the experiences of those who’ve actually been sexually assaulted. I’ve been raped, and yet I don’t feel calling this a sexual assault cheapens my own experience at all, so steady with the speaking for all of us, there. I think it’s a relative misdemeanour assault, though, and it should be up to the victim whether it should be taken further. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mikaela-lauren-kisses-cecilia-braekhus-sexual-assault/799294.md?page=7)