# Mike Huckabee is strongly opposed to abortion - including in cases of rape or incest **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2008, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-huckabee-is-strongly-opposed-to-abortion-including-in-cases-of-rape-or-incest/432598 "2008-01-07T15:22:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2008, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-huckabee-is-strongly-opposed-to-abortion-including-in-cases-of-rape-or-incest/432598/81 "2008-01-08T14:00:34Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] One can’t be “morally” opposed to abortion. It’s a position that is immoral in itself, and represents a repudiation of morality. One might as well talk about the “moral” reasons for supporting slavery. [/QUOTE] And once again, \*\*Der Trihs \*\* demonstrates why he should stay out of GD. This is exactly the kind of fatuous post that produces zero light and lots of heat. And, once again, a potential ally in this debate (me) calling you on your posting style. So, basically, nothing new. But I won’t argue with you, since arguing with you is pretty much like arguing with \*\*lekatt \*\* (only with more anger). ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2008, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-huckabee-is-strongly-opposed-to-abortion-including-in-cases-of-rape-or-incest/432598/82 "2008-01-08T14:01:55Z")
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas] Every state has laws that a baby can be left in a hospital, police station, hospital or church no questions asked. Any person can abandon a child to foster care. [/quote] It’s interesting that you should take that line, since you have inveighed before against adoption as being teh evil that causes harm both to the mother that gives the child up and the child that is adopted - enough that adoption shouldn’t necessarily be seen as a valid alternative to abortion, if I have understood you correctly. But I’ll make a note of this, and… > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > If someone is threatening your body, or you even think they are, you have every legal right to protect yourself even to the point of killing them. Nobody has the legal right to use your body as a support system. Why should the fetus have a legal right that is illegal to every other person if the fetus is a “person.” Ah, I see where you’re going - if a foetus is not a person it has no right to life, and if it is a person then it has no right to use your body for life support, because no other person does. But you were arguing a short while ago, again if I have understood you correctly, that he who murders when he has the alternative of abandonment is culpable, where she who aborts is not, precisely because the former person has an alternative. Well, the foetus does not. Any other person would have had the choice not to use your body for life support in the first place; the foetus did not. Will that do for a start? > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > A pregnant woman has a headache and takes as asprin. Two days later she miscarries and traces of “drugs” are found in her system. Should she be punished? > > A pregnant woman tells her anti-abortion co-worker that she might be pregnant, doesn’t want the baby and if she is pregnant she will have an abortion. When the pregnancy is confirmed and she makes the appointment for the abortion, she miscarries before the abortion can be performed. The co-worker goes to the authorities and says the woman “caused” the miscarriage that killed her “baby.” Should the woman be punished. Oh, in such a case I suppose society would have to appoint specially-trained people to examine the facts and decide what ought to be done. Fortunately, I believe we already do so in other areas. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > The debate has “raged on” because the other side is either irrational or dishonest. Not because the obvious hasn’t been pointed out thousands of times before. My ears are hearing cries of rage from quite distant corners of the entire building as my co-workers examine their blown irony meters, never mind mine. ---
**Author:** ![Wildfire\_MM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f08c70/32.png) [@Wildfire\_MM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildfire_MM)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2008, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-huckabee-is-strongly-opposed-to-abortion-including-in-cases-of-rape-or-incest/432598/83 "2008-01-08T14:08:56Z")
Let’s say abortion became illegal in USA and punishable by prison (abortion became legal in Portugal in 2007. Expert says that there where about 23.000 illegal abortions each year. Portugal have a population about 10 million - 5 million women) USA have a population of 300 mill - 150 mill women. According to portugeese numbers there will be about 700.000 illegal abortions per year in USA. In theory: If all these women where convicted and sent to prison for - lets say 25 year - then about 15 million women would be in US prison in 20 years for illegal abortion only. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2008, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-huckabee-is-strongly-opposed-to-abortion-including-in-cases-of-rape-or-incest/432598/84 "2008-01-08T14:14:35Z")
[QUOTE=Sophistry and Illusion] And once again, \*\*Der Trihs \*\* demonstrates why he should stay out of GD. [/QUOTE] I offend people in no small part because I don’t pretend to respect beliefs that are evil or stupid, which is a major taboo for much of the American left. And I’ll come here if I choose. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2008, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-huckabee-is-strongly-opposed-to-abortion-including-in-cases-of-rape-or-incest/432598/85 "2008-01-08T14:20:50Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] It’s interesting that you should take that line, since you have inveighed before against adoption as being teh evil that causes harm both to the mother that gives the child up and the child that is adopted - enough that adoption shouldn’t necessarily be seen as a valid alternative to abortion, if I have understood you correctly. But I’ll make a note of this, and… [/quote] No, I just wish anti-abortionists would stop presenting adoption as the answer to abortion and that it never has any negative consequences. Women should be told the truth about both adoption and abortion and be allowed to choose > [@](#): > > Ah, I see where you’re going - if a foetus is not a person it has no right to life, and if it is a person then it has no right to use your body for life support, because no other person does. But you were arguing a short while ago, again if I have understood you correctly, that he who murders when he has the alternative of abandonment is culpable, where she who aborts is not, precisely because the former person has an alternative. Well, the foetus does not. Any other person would have had the choice not to use your body for life support in the first place; the foetus did not. Will that do for a start? The person doesn’t have the right to use my body even if I caused his condition. Say I cause an auto accident that destroys your kidneys and I am a perfect match to donate a kidney to you. No court can make me do so. > [@](#): > > Oh, in such a case I suppose society would have to appoint specially-trained people to examine the facts and decide what ought to be done. Fortunately, I believe we already do so in other areas. Do you really want to have each and every miscarriage examined and the woman intergated and jailed for murder if the legal system thinks she caused it. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2008, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-huckabee-is-strongly-opposed-to-abortion-including-in-cases-of-rape-or-incest/432598/86 "2008-01-08T14:22:24Z")
[QUOTE=Wildfire\*\*MM] Let’s say abortion became illegal in USA and punishable by prison (abortion became legal in Portugal in 2007. Expert says that there where about 23.000 illegal abortions each year. Portugal have a population about 10 million - 5 million women) USA have a population of 300 mill - 150 mill women. According to portugeese numbers there will be about 700.000 illegal abortions per year in USA. In theory: If all these women where convicted and sent to prison for - lets say 25 year - then about 15 million women would be in US prison in 20 years for illegal abortion only. [/QUOTE] And don’t forget the doctors, nurses, health care providers and anyone else who would be jailed as an accomplice. ---
**Author:** ![Wildfire\_MM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f08c70/32.png) [@Wildfire\_MM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildfire_MM)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2008, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-huckabee-is-strongly-opposed-to-abortion-including-in-cases-of-rape-or-incest/432598/87 "2008-01-08T14:28:16Z")
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas] And don’t forget the doctors, nurses, health care providers and anyone else who would be jailed as an accomplice. [/QUOTE] I suspect that USA would experience a brain-drain ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2008, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-huckabee-is-strongly-opposed-to-abortion-including-in-cases-of-rape-or-incest/432598/88 "2008-01-08T14:32:37Z")
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas] The person doesn’t have the right to use my body even if I caused his condition. Say I cause an auto accident that destroys your kidneys and I am a perfect match to donate a kidney to you. No court can make me do so. [/QUOTE] Not a good analogy, try this one, You caused the accident, you consented to donate your kidney, You are in the middle of the transplant operation, the other person now will die if the operation is not complete. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2008, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-huckabee-is-strongly-opposed-to-abortion-including-in-cases-of-rape-or-incest/432598/89 "2008-01-08T14:34:47Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Not a good analogy, try this one, You caused the accident, you consented to donate your kidney, You are in the middle of the transplant operation, the other person now will die if the operation is not complete. [/QUOTE] OK, and? If you’re still conscious and able to make the decision, you can withdraw consent at any time. Sucks to be them, of course, but they cannot seize your kidney even after consent. Consent can be withdrawn until that kidney is out of your body. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2008, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-huckabee-is-strongly-opposed-to-abortion-including-in-cases-of-rape-or-incest/432598/90 "2008-01-08T14:35:42Z")
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas] No, I just wish anti-abortionists would stop presenting adoption as the answer to abortion and that it never has any negative consequences. Women should be told the truth about both adoption and abortion and be allowed to choose. [/quote] Eh, either consider it an alternative or don’t - just don’t discount it as an option on some occasions, but hold it up as one on others, as it suits the argument you’re presenting at the time. > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > The person doesn’t have the right to use my body even if I caused his condition. Say I cause an auto accident that destroys your kidneys and I am a perfect match to donate a kidney to you. No court can make me do so. That’s right. Only the foetus has that right, because only the foetus has no alternative. Invent these artificial wombs, and I’ll be there lobbying for your right to have the unwanted foetus transplanted into one. Incidentally, if there were a huge incidence of people suffering kidney damage in auto accidents and transplants from the at-fault driver to the victim were feasible, I suspect society would at least examine the question. But there isn’t, and up to now even discussing the question has been patently a waste of hot air. > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Do you really want to have each and every miscarriage examined and the woman inter{ro}gated and jailed for murder if the legal system thinks she caused it. No. But I could hope that investigation of miscarriages would be safe, legal and rare. Similarly, I do not wish that any bereaved parent should be forced to undergo an intrusive and painful investigation into the circumstances of their child’s death; on the other hand, I do not wish that the parental murder of a child should go unpunished. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2008, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-huckabee-is-strongly-opposed-to-abortion-including-in-cases-of-rape-or-incest/432598/91 "2008-01-08T14:54:24Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] Eh, either consider it an alternative or don’t - just don’t discount it as an option on some occasions, but hold it up as one on others, as it suits the argument you’re presenting at the time. [/quote] It is an alternative for a child. It shouldn’t have to be the only alternative for a pregnant woman who doesn’t want to continue the pregnancy and who knows she could not raise the child or give it up > [@](#): > > That’s right. Only the foetus has that right, because only the foetus has no alternative. Invent these artificial wombs, and I’ll be there lobbying for your right to have the unwanted foetus transplanted into one. Incidentally, if there were a huge incidence of people suffering kidney damage in auto accidents and transplants from the at-fault driver to the victim were feasible, I suspect society would at least examine the question. But there isn’t, and up to now even discussing the question has been patently a waste of hot air. But in giving the fetus no alternative, you are taking away the woman’s choices. Is the fetus more important than the mother? Then an abortion that would kill the fetus but save the mother’s life or health should be illegal. > [@](#): > > No. But I could hope that investigation of miscarriages would be safe, legal and rare. Similarly, I do not wish that any bereaved parent should be forced to undergo an intrusive and painful investigation into the circumstances of their child’s death; on the other hand, I do not wish that the parental murder of a child should go unpunished. You can’t have it both ways. Either every miscarriage would have to be thoroughly investigated, tests run, witnesses interviewed to make sure it wasn’t caused by the women. Indeed, any late or heavy period by a sexually active would have to be examined. Maybe it was an early miscarriage caused by the woman. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2008, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-huckabee-is-strongly-opposed-to-abortion-including-in-cases-of-rape-or-incest/432598/92 "2008-01-08T14:55:21Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] Eh, either consider it an alternative or don’t - just don’t discount it as an option on some occasions, but hold it up as one on others, as it suits the argument you’re presenting at the time. [/QUOTE] “An alternative” doesn’t mean “the solution”. She’s quite clear that there are pros and cons to abortion, and informed consent is key. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2008, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-huckabee-is-strongly-opposed-to-abortion-including-in-cases-of-rape-or-incest/432598/93 "2008-01-08T15:03:41Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] “An alternative” doesn’t mean “the solution”. She’s quite clear that there are pros and cons to abortion, and informed consent is key. [/QUOTE] Anti-abortionists only point out the cons of abortion and the pros of adoption. Being pro-choice, I want the pros and cons of each side presented equally and in an unbiased format. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2008, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-huckabee-is-strongly-opposed-to-abortion-including-in-cases-of-rape-or-incest/432598/94 "2008-01-08T15:07:38Z")
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas] It is an alternative for a child. It shouldn’t have to be the only alternative for a pregnant woman who doesn’t want to continue the pregnancy and who knows she could not raise the child or give it up. [/quote] Yup, someone else should die instead. That’s fairer. > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > But in giving the fetus no alternative, you are taking away the woman’s choices. Is the fetus more important than the mother? Then an abortion that would kill the fetus but save the mother’s life or health should be illegal. As to the first part of that, I tend to think that the woman had a choice in the first place, although as far as the rest goes, I don’t believe I’ve ever said that if it comes to choosing the life of the foetus or the life of the mother, the mother should die; nor that the foetus is “more important” than the mother. > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > You can’t have it both ways. Either every miscarriage would have to be thoroughly investigated, tests run, witnesses interviewed to make sure it wasn’t caused by the women. Indeed, any late or heavy period by a sexually active would have to be examined. Maybe it was an early miscarriage caused by the woman. Who’s trying to have it both ways? Who said the law would have to be drawn up in order to cover late or heavy periods? Why are you perpetrating a slippery slope fallacy, and does your argument have any support from an examination of laws, customs and practices in countries where abortion is already illegal? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2008, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-huckabee-is-strongly-opposed-to-abortion-including-in-cases-of-rape-or-incest/432598/95 "2008-01-08T15:10:22Z")
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas] Anti-abortionists only point out the cons of abortion and the pros of adoption. Being pro-choice, I want the pros and cons of each side presented equally and in an unbiased format. [/QUOTE] Oh, yeah, I’m right there with you. I don’t think painting anything as the one-size-fits-all solution is ethical here. Sometimes abortion is the right thing and sometimes adoption and sometimes keeping and raising the child yourself. I want to protect ALL of those choices, and I agree that they should be presented honestly, pros and cons. I don’t think you’ve been inconsistent at all. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2008, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-huckabee-is-strongly-opposed-to-abortion-including-in-cases-of-rape-or-incest/432598/96 "2008-01-08T15:18:48Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] While you didn’t mean it to be taken that way, in my opinion that is the standard motivation behind the anti-abortion movement. Pure, misogynistic malice. [/quote] You believe I didn’t mean it to be taken that way? Yet you ascribe to my general position that precise sentiment? So I am confused. When I say, “They deserve it, the filthy whores,” do you say I’m telling the truth as I see it, or not? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2008, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-huckabee-is-strongly-opposed-to-abortion-including-in-cases-of-rape-or-incest/432598/97 "2008-01-08T15:30:05Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] Oh, yeah, I’m right there with you. I don’t think painting anything as the one-size-fits-all solution is ethical here. Sometimes abortion is the right thing and sometimes adoption and sometimes keeping and raising the child yourself. I want to protect ALL of those choices, and I agree that they should be presented honestly, pros and cons. I don’t think you’ve been inconsistent at all. [/QUOTE] Good. I’m all in favour of that, especially honest and truthful information. …Which, as far as I can see, means that when I checked into the thread with my hypothetical about a man killing a helpless dependent, that in this case he would be entitled to say “Yes, I considered the alternative, but decided it was not suitable”. After all, disagreeing with his right to do so would be taking away his choice. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2008, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-huckabee-is-strongly-opposed-to-abortion-including-in-cases-of-rape-or-incest/432598/98 "2008-01-08T15:40:29Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] I offend people in no small part because I don’t pretend to respect beliefs that are evil or stupid, which is a major taboo for much of the American left. And I’ll come here if I choose. [/QUOTE] **Der Trihs** , in my life I’ve known a lot of people like you. They all thought they inspired the anger of others because they dared speak truths we were afraid to utter. They were all wrong. It’s your total inability to see the point of view of anyone who disagrees with you which pisses people off. You can’t see it, but your posts display the same dogmatism you claim to decry in others. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2008, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-huckabee-is-strongly-opposed-to-abortion-including-in-cases-of-rape-or-incest/432598/99 "2008-01-08T15:40:34Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] Good. I’m all in favour of that, especially honest and truthful information. …Which, as far as I can see, means that when I checked into the thread with my hypothetical about a man killing a helpless dependent, that in this case he would be entitled to say “Yes, I considered the alternative, but decided it was not suitable”. After all, disagreeing with his right to do so would be taking away his choice. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure what you want me to say. Do I think he should be able to kill a helpless dependent? Sure, if no one else on earth is willing or able to care for that dependent. I’m callous like that. But I suspect that’s not a realistic scenario - there’s always SOMEONE willing to take over, be it social services or street people. I think that as long as someone else can and will take over care, then custody should be turned over instead of death dealt. But if he’s really the only person on God’s green earth that can provide care and he doesn’t want to, then sure, he can ethically walk away and allow death to follow in its natural course. Beings that can’t live on their own have no right to life. It’s nature’s law. And yeah, I think that if/when artificial wombs or fetal transplants are possible, that those avenues should be used instead of abortion. Turn over the custody instead of allowing the fetus to die, sure. That’s why I like tying abortion law with viability, instead of arbitrary weeks past conception. If someone’s willing to pay for the NICU care of a 23 week preemie and adopt it, then by all means, go for it. But until then, I agree that her right to removal trumps the fetal right to use her body as life support against her will. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2008, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-huckabee-is-strongly-opposed-to-abortion-including-in-cases-of-rape-or-incest/432598/100 "2008-01-08T15:42:24Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] Who’s trying to have it both ways? Who said the law would have to be drawn up in order to cover late or heavy periods? Why are you perpetrating a slippery slope fallacy, and does your argument have any support from an examination of laws, customs and practices in countries where abortion is already illegal? [/QUOTE] Because that late or heavy period might be a miscarriage. If every conception is a person, then every miscarriage could be a murder. And all in vitro fertilizations would have to be implanted. No more fertilizing ten, implanting four, and then reducing the number to two. You’d have to implant all ten or not do it at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-huckabee-is-strongly-opposed-to-abortion-including-in-cases-of-rape-or-incest/432598.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-huckabee-is-strongly-opposed-to-abortion-including-in-cases-of-rape-or-incest/432598.md?page=6)