# Mike Shelton: Conservative, Editorial Cartoonist, FUCKHEAD!!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 22, 2007, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-shelton-conservative-editorial-cartoonist-fuckhead/393269 "2007-02-22T20:15:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2007, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-shelton-conservative-editorial-cartoonist-fuckhead/393269/81 "2007-02-24T17:18:31Z")
[QUOTE=DianaG] I’m completely baffled as to how anyone can think that calling 3000 \*\*unnecessary \*\* deaths a waste is somehow disrespectful, simply because they were soldiers. If 3000 people die in a fire, is it disrespectful to call it a waste? I respect a soldier’s decision to accept risk to his life. I respect his sacrifice if his life is what his decision costs him. But if he should never have been there to begin with, his death was a waste. [/QUOTE] The reason is thatcertain sushine patriots and hollow Americans aren’t interested in whether soldier’s lives are protected, used, spent, or wasted at all – they’re only interested in how it _sounds_ and how it can be used to score points. If a three-star general says “I won’t waste the lives of my men on \,” he’s cheered and quoted in countless email forwardings. If a serious politician says “that was a waste of lives,” he’s vilified – IF he happens to be an eeeeeevil liberal. Same words, same sentiment, but different political leverage. Sailboat ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2007, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-shelton-conservative-editorial-cartoonist-fuckhead/393269/82 "2007-02-25T02:18:35Z")
> [@](#): > > But that’s not the real world. Many, many Americans react emotionally to a perception that someone does not hold the following principle firmly in his or her heart: Our armed forces accept the risk of the ultimate sacrifice, going where they are ordered without question because that concession of their personal liberty is what ultimately makes us all safe in the long run. We respect that concession whenever it is made, regardless of the circumstances the soldiers find themselves in, and soldiers everywhere recognize that their commitment to this ideal is of the highest honor, both a sacrifice and a reward in itself. And so do we. ## I know that’s what my friend Bill believed with all of his heart and intellect. He lived an honorable life and sacrificed it in Vietnam for the Domino Theory. He will never know that his death was **wasted** on a theory that did not prove to be true. His wasted death does not dim his honorable sacrifice. But I will not perpetuate a myth that his death made us safe. _In memory of Capt. William Black, West Point, Class of 1964_ ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2007, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-shelton-conservative-editorial-cartoonist-fuckhead/393269/83 "2007-02-25T06:13:37Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] He lived an honorable life and sacrificed it in Vietnam for the Domino Theory. [/QUOTE] Lives are always wasted when leaders stubbornly hold onto a theory despite clear signs that it is wrong. In WWii Army Air Force Generals Arnold, Eaker, Spaatz theorized that daylight bombing could win the war and that our heavy bombers could defend themselves in daylight raids deep into Germany. Several thousand members of the 8th Air Force had to be needlessly killed before they admitted that they were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2007, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-shelton-conservative-editorial-cartoonist-fuckhead/393269/84 "2007-02-25T12:00:38Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] I know that’s what my friend Bill believed with all of his heart and intellect. He lived an honorable life and sacrificed it in Vietnam for the Domino Theory. He will never know that his death was **wasted** on a theory that did not prove to be true. His wasted death does not dim his honorable sacrifice. But I will not perpetuate a myth that his death made us safe. [/QUOTE] What makes us safe is the willingness of many men and women to sacrifice personal liberty, a willingness that is disconnected at the start to any particular conflict. The existence of that willingness, the fact that there are thousands of people who have made the commitment to allow themselves to be put in harm’s way, is what makes us safe. And, again, that willingness exists before the first marine lands. I still assert that one can believe your friend Bill’s death was unnecessary, advancing no immediate cause that made us safer, and still hold that he died serving a higher cause, one not connected to Viet Nam or any other war. So, again, I don’t think Obama said anything truly controversial, but I understand why he’d clarify and I think I understand the sensibility that requires that clarification. I’ll say one more time that the majority of Americans do not support the war; a majority think it was not a war of necessity. Yet Obama still thought he should clarify. What myth, then, is he helping to perpetuate? God bless your friend Bill. May he rest in peace. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2007, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-shelton-conservative-editorial-cartoonist-fuckhead/393269/85 "2007-02-25T16:52:28Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] What makes us safe is the willingness of many men and women to sacrifice personal liberty, a willingness that is disconnected at the start to any particular conflict. The existence of that willingness, the fact that there are thousands of people who have made the commitment to allow themselves to be put in harm’s way, is what makes us safe. And, again, that willingness exists before the first marine lands. [/QUOTE] We safer safer when political leaders adopt policies that obviate such sacrifices. Calling for such sacrifice only as a last resort is good political leadership. Plunging hastily into an ill-considered conflict is one thing that leads to the waste of lives. Another thing is stubbornly pursuing a plan, strategy and tactic that hasn’t worked and isn’t working. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2007, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-shelton-conservative-editorial-cartoonist-fuckhead/393269/86 "2007-02-25T17:44:38Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] The existence of that willingness, the fact that there are thousands of people who have made the commitment to allow themselves to be put in harm’s way, is what makes us safe. [/QUOTE] The existence of that willingness gets filtered from our national gene pool every time we start a stupid war, and kill those that have the trait. Stupid wars make us _less_ safe. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2007, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-shelton-conservative-editorial-cartoonist-fuckhead/393269/87 "2007-02-25T18:18:20Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] We safer safer when political leaders adopt policies that obviate such sacrifices. Calling for such sacrifice only as a last resort is good political leadership. Plunging hastily into an ill-considered conflict is one thing that leads to the waste of lives. Another thing is stubbornly pursuing a plan, strategy and tactic that hasn’t worked and isn’t working. [/QUOTE] Yes. Are you directing that at me because you think my posts somehow contradict that notion? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2007, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-shelton-conservative-editorial-cartoonist-fuckhead/393269/88 "2007-02-25T18:23:37Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] The existence of that willingness gets filtered from our national gene pool every time we start a stupid war, and kill those that have the trait. Stupid wars make us _less_ safe. [/QUOTE] More so than “just” wars? BTW, to anyone who responds to my posts with some variation of, “But this is a wasteful, ill-conceived war” is missing my point completely. Sorry I can’t take up the other end of that argument for you. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2007, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-shelton-conservative-editorial-cartoonist-fuckhead/393269/89 "2007-02-25T18:36:16Z")
[QUOTE=DMC] You know perfectly well that that isn’t what “wasted” meant in the context he used it in. I notice that you are now pretending that it’s how “other people” might perceive it, but in the above quote, you took the stance yourself. Planning on retracting that, or are you standing by it? [/QUOTE] Moto is one of those charming fellows who is cheered by the thought that dishonesty and confusion are part of our public discourse and instead of fighting it, simply reserves himself to commenting upon it with amusement. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2007, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-shelton-conservative-editorial-cartoonist-fuckhead/393269/90 "2007-02-25T21:11:26Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] Yes. Are you directing that at me because you think my posts somehow contradict that notion? [/QUOTE] as a matter of fact, yes. I don’t think our safety depends primarily on the willingness of people to die. I believe that our safety is tied up in the well being of the world at large. “Ask not for whom the bell tolls, …” and that sort of thing. Your post said that > [@](#): > > What makes us safe is the willingness of many men and women to sacrifice personal liberty … It seems to me that when we reach the point of requiring people to make such a sacrifice we are already unsafe. Maybe I misread your post and if so I’m sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2007, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-shelton-conservative-editorial-cartoonist-fuckhead/393269/91 "2007-02-25T22:27:45Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] as a matter of fact, yes. I don’t think our safety depends primarily on the willingness of people to die. I believe that our safety is tied up in the well being of the world at large. “Ask not for whom the bell tolls, …” and that sort of thing. [/QUOTE] Sorry, I’m not following you. You said this: > [@](#): > > We safer safer when political leaders adopt policies that obviate such sacrifices. Calling for such sacrifice only as a last resort is good political leadership. > > Plunging hastily into an ill-considered conflict is one thing that leads to the waste of lives. Another thing is stubbornly pursuing a plan, strategy and tactic that hasn’t worked and isn’t working. I don’t believe I’ve offered anything that contradicts this, which I why I asked you what I did. Now you seem to be saying that having such sacrifice in our arsenal is not acceptable to you even as a last resort. Or I misunderstand. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2007, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-shelton-conservative-editorial-cartoonist-fuckhead/393269/92 "2007-02-25T23:17:17Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] Now you seem to be saying that having such sacrifice in our arsenal is not acceptable to you even as a last resort. Or I misunderstand. [/QUOTE] ??? Where is this implied by me? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2007, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-shelton-conservative-editorial-cartoonist-fuckhead/393269/93 "2007-02-25T23:47:44Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] ??? Where is this implied by me? [/QUOTE] That’s what I inferred from this… > [@](#): > > It seems to me that when we reach the point of requiring people to make such a sacrifice we are already unsafe. …which was in response to this: > [@](#): > > What makes us safe is the willingness of many men and women to sacrifice personal liberty … Did I misinterpret? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2007, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-shelton-conservative-editorial-cartoonist-fuckhead/393269/94 "2007-02-26T01:27:13Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] That’s what I inferred from this…which was in response to this:Did I misinterpret? [/QUOTE] i see now. **Zoe’s** post concerned someone who was killed which is a tad more than sacrificing “poersonal liberty.” I mistakenly assumed that your post was in reference to dying. Actually, I’m not sure that military volunteers are thinking in terms of the liberty they will surrender by joining up. And I’m quite sure that even on the toughest mission only the morbid thing that they are actually going to die. Someone else might, but not **me**. It’s been my experience that everyone in advance of missions is still making plans for the future and figuring out what they will do after. Yes, if we are going to have a substantial permanet military force we need volunteers but I doubt they are thinking in terms of saving the country from destruction by surrendering their personal liberty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mike-shelton-conservative-editorial-cartoonist-fuckhead/393269.md?page=4)