# Mild objection to a Dex thread closing **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 10, 2007, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mild-objection-to-a-dex-thread-closing/429485 "2007-12-10T16:16:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mild-objection-to-a-dex-thread-closing/429485/41 "2007-12-11T02:27:04Z")
[QUOTE=Flyhalf] I see what you’re saying, but I don’t think you really have to dig all that deep. Maybe it was direct or maybe it wasn’t, I don’t really care. But I do think it was out of line (though I really have no opinion of Opal) and I think it’s arguable that folks have been called out for less. [/QUOTE] What makes the whole thing worse is that Opal’s reaction was the exact one that was being trolled for. Wasn’t it obvious that the OP was not trying to start a legitimate discussion about ways to control the feral cat population, but to rile up the infamous cat lovers of the Dope? Sure, Opal was foolish to be suckered into it, but let’s not defend someone who came here to light fires. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mild-objection-to-a-dex-thread-closing/429485/42 "2007-12-11T02:30:39Z")
Wow, for once, **Rubystreak** , you and I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mild-objection-to-a-dex-thread-closing/429485/43 "2007-12-11T02:37:55Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Wow, for once, **Rubystreak** , you and I agree. [/QUOTE] Have all the little devils gone ice skating? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mild-objection-to-a-dex-thread-closing/429485/44 "2007-12-11T02:38:21Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Suppose a feral cat has discovered your koi pond and has begun fishing. You are a hundred feet away and have a BB gun, with which you have marksman skills. You do not have time to get to your koi pond in time to rescue a fish. Is it okay to shoot the cat? Or should you allow the fish to die? If the latter, why wouldn’t it be cruel to allow the fish to be eaten alive when you could prevent it? [/QUOTE] What if the fish was Hitler? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mild-objection-to-a-dex-thread-closing/429485/45 "2007-12-11T08:08:00Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > And when it is proven that T.O. lives under a bridge, I hope everyone rushing to defend him feels that little sting. Now that he’s banned I guess now’s the time for me to feel that painful sting. Oh why didn’t I listen to the self satisfied school marms that so diligently patrol this place? Oh god why?!?! ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mild-objection-to-a-dex-thread-closing/429485/46 "2007-12-11T08:32:09Z")
[QUOTE=Hello Again] I see your point but the OP stated clearly he lacked the means and ability to make a clean kill by the methods he was using. No chance of a clean kill = cruelty. [/QUOTE] I think it should be re-iterated that the point of the original thread was asking for help in making clean kills: > [@T.O.](#): > > I’m also considering a wrist-rocket type slingshot with steel shot, I know those can be pretty lethal to small animals but I’m not that good of an aim with one. Of course, a firearm would be ideal but I live in the middle of a city so that’s not an option. or if impossible do something different: > [@](#): > > Does anyone have any advice? Am I barking up the wrong tree and should I be trying traps? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mild-objection-to-a-dex-thread-closing/429485/47 "2007-12-11T09:55:35Z")
[QUOTE=Scissorjack] What if the fish was Hitler? [/QUOTE] What if you were Dex? That’d be just grand. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mild-objection-to-a-dex-thread-closing/429485/48 "2007-12-11T13:26:29Z")
[QUOTE=CarnalK] Now that he’s banned I guess now’s the time for me to feel that painful sting. Oh why didn’t I listen to the self satisfied school marms that so diligently patrol this place? Oh god why?!?! [/QUOTE] Why, oh, why would you be glad you were feeding trolls? … Oh yeah, THAT’S why. ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mild-objection-to-a-dex-thread-closing/429485/49 "2007-12-11T18:14:15Z")
[QUOTE=Rubystreak] And when it is proven that T.O. lives under a bridge, I hope everyone rushing to defend him feels that little sting. [/QUOTE] For the record, I never said he wasn’t a troll. That wasn’t the point of my OP. I reiterate that my objection is not (as people in this thread seem to be interpreting[sup]1[/sup]) that that thread shouldn’t have been locked. I’m saying that it shouldn’t have been locked on the basis of discussing illegal activity, when the illegality of said activity is very much in dispute. It would not bother me so much if **Dex** had locked the thread saying “You are a troll. I’m locking your thread. Stop trolling.” At least that would have been honest. In essence, I’m saying (inexpertly, I guess) that while mistake-of-law is inexcusable in cases like this, mistake-of-fact should be a legitimate affirmative defense to rule-breaking on this board. Allow me to 'splain: Analogy time! **Mistake-of-law** : You have consentual sex with a 17-year-old, knowing s/he is underage. You can not claim that you didn’t know about the statutory rape law. Guilty! (In most jurisdictions in the US; for most classes of crimes.) **Mistake-of-fact** : You have consentual sex with a 17-year-old, knowing about the statutory rape law, but reasonably and honestly believing that s/he is 18. Innocent! [sup]2[/sup] (In most jurisdictions in the US.) In the situation at hand, the consentual sex is analogous to posting about potentially illegal material, and the statutory rape law is analogous to the SDMB rule about not posting about illegal material. Of course, it becomes complicated by the fact that the jailbait’s age is in dispute, and s/he might be 20. In the closed thread, **Dex** is calling[sup]3[/sup] something a mistake-of-law when it is actually a mistake-of-fact. Foul! [sup]1[/sup](It was, perhaps, ill-advised to discuss cats at such length in my OP. I should have known that’s what everyone would focus on…) [sup]2[/sup]If you’re still going to impose punishment for mistake-of-fact, it should at least be mitigated. I do appreciate **Dex** ’s apology for his harsh words. That shows real class. [sup]3[/sup]Of course, considering his addendum to that thread and his post in this one, this is all academic. But the fun kind of academic! ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mild-objection-to-a-dex-thread-closing/429485/50 "2007-12-11T18:21:44Z")
[QUOTE=Rubystreak] Why, oh, why would you be glad you were feeding trolls? … Oh yeah, THAT’S why. [/QUOTE] You’re kind of an idiot, aren’t you? I wasn’t “feeding the troll” in any way. I was just agreeing with **Randy Seltzer** , which requires a partial defence of T.O’s other thread. But awesome “gotcha” turn around of my sentence. How did you ever come up with it? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mild-objection-to-a-dex-thread-closing/429485/51 "2007-12-11T18:27:06Z")
[QUOTE=Randy Seltzer] Of course, considering his addendum to that thread and his post in this one, this is all academic. But the fun kind of academic! [/QUOTE] All that bothers me (aside from his not responding to my question) is that he (Dex) presumes to be the arbiter of what constitutes cruelty to animals. If he wants to be the arbiter of what constitutes a closeable thread, fine. But don’t tie it to some moralistic proclamation that doesn’t even make sense. Lots of people have koi ponds, and feral cats are the worst possible nuisance and danger to the fish. It is hardly cruel to protect them. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mild-objection-to-a-dex-thread-closing/429485/52 "2007-12-11T18:35:17Z")
[QUOTE=Randy Seltzer] Analogy time! **Mistake-of-law** : You have consentual sex with a 17-year-old, knowing s/he is underage. You can not claim that you didn’t know about the statutory rape law. Guilty! (In most jurisdictions in the US; for most classes of crimes.) **Mistake-of-fact** : You have consentual sex with a 17-year-old, knowing about the statutory rape law, but reasonably and honestly believing that s/he is 18. Innocent! [sup]2[/sup] (In most jurisdictions in the US.) In the situation at hand, the consentual sex is analogous to posting about potentially illegal material, and the statutory rape law is analogous to the SDMB rule about not posting about illegal material. Of course, it becomes complicated by the fact that the jailbait’s age is in dispute, and s/he might be 20. [/QUOTE] I agree with your point, but just as a nitpick, I don’t think there’s any jurisdiction where having the mistaken belief that the young lady was of age is any defense. I forget what the legal term is, but it’s a crime without intent. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mild-objection-to-a-dex-thread-closing/429485/53 "2007-12-11T18:35:59Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] All that bothers me (aside from his not responding to my question) is that he (Dex) presumes to be the arbiter of what constitutes cruelty to animals. If he wants to be the arbiter of what constitutes a closeable thread, fine. But don’t tie it to some moralistic proclamation that doesn’t even make sense. Lots of people have koi ponds, and feral cats are the worst possible nuisance and danger to the fish. It is hardly cruel to protect them. [/QUOTE] I question whether pinging a BB off a cat’s butt isn’t stretching the definition of cruelty to animals just a tad bit. I loves me the kitties myself, and I personally would try to figure out a better way to handle the problem, but I’m not sure I’d call it cruelty. ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mild-objection-to-a-dex-thread-closing/429485/54 "2007-12-11T18:43:32Z")
Edit: Actually, never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Risha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@Risha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Risha)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mild-objection-to-a-dex-thread-closing/429485/55 "2007-12-11T19:19:44Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] I question whether pinging a BB off a cat’s butt isn’t stretching the definition of cruelty to animals just a tad bit. I loves me the kitties myself, and I personally would try to figure out a better way to handle the problem, but I’m not sure I’d call it cruelty. [/QUOTE] Actually, BB guns are perfectly capable of maiming or killing a small animal. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BB\_gun#Safety](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BB_gun#Safety) ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mild-objection-to-a-dex-thread-closing/429485/56 "2007-12-11T19:42:17Z")
[QUOTE=Risha] Actually, BB guns are perfectly capable of maiming or killing a small animal. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BB\_gun#Safety](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BB_gun#Safety) [/QUOTE] Well, in that case, I would say that if the cat was actually killed, I still wouldn’t consider it animal cruelty. If you let it run away injured, that’s another story. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mild-objection-to-a-dex-thread-closing/429485/57 "2007-12-11T19:49:23Z")
[QUOTE=CarnalK] You’re kind of an idiot, aren’t you? [/quote] And you are the wittiest, most brilliant mind ever to grace the Dope. > [@](#): > > I wasn’t “feeding the troll” in any way. I was just agreeing with **Randy Seltzer** , which requires a partial defence of T.O’s other thread. But awesome “gotcha” turn around of my sentence. How did you ever come up with it? :rolleyes: Why even respond to me then if I wasn’t talking about you, douchebag? You decided to respond to my post about T.O. being a troll as if I were talking about you. If I wasn’t, then why all the defensiveness? I wonder. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mild-objection-to-a-dex-thread-closing/429485/58 "2007-12-11T19:57:54Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Well, in that case, I would say that if the cat was actually killed, I still wouldn’t consider it animal cruelty. If you let it run away injured, that’s another story. [/QUOTE] We’ve tried everything from fox pee (which works great on squirrels and rabbits around the garden) to screaming “Scat!” to shooting BBs (though we have higher powered weapons). A three-pump BB shot won’t even break skin, but it will sting. It has been my experience that the animals are pretty smart, and even communicate in some way. Maybe a frightened cat peed on a tree and other cats can smell the fear warning or something, I don’t know. But for whatever reason, we only need to address this issue once or twice a year — evidently as new generations arrive or the old scents disappear. Our fish are several years old now (and will outlive us, we are told). They are big and beautiful and deserve their space. They get frightened too, especially by cats leaning over and slobbering into the water. We have given them little spaces where they can sort of hide and lots of plant cover, but the cats definitely pose a danger. And we intend to do whatever we have to do to protect our fish. I wish some others were as understanding as you are. ETA Incidentally, we actually have an (mostly) outdoor cat. I think she makes some difference in helping to defend the property generally. She has all her claws, but she is almost 18 years old, arthritic to some extent, and has deafness that goes in and out. We have an indoor cat as well. We love cats. But that doesn’t mean that we feel obligated in some way to every cat in existence. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mild-objection-to-a-dex-thread-closing/429485/59 "2007-12-11T20:11:34Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] We’ve tried everything from fox pee (which works great on squirrels and rabbits around the garden) to screaming “Scat!” to shooting BBs (though we have higher powered weapons). A three-pump BB shot won’t even break skin, but it will sting. [/QUOTE] This is what I had always heard about BB guns, and I was giving my opinion on whether or not I consider it “animal cruelty” based on the assumption that it is correct. I don’t consider it animal cruelty to chase a cat away with a BB if it just smarts a little and doesn’t do any actual damage. As I said, I probably wouldn’t do it myself, but I don’t think it’s cruel. > [@](#): > > It has been my experience that the animals are pretty smart, and even communicate in some way. Maybe a frightened cat peed on a tree and other cats can smell the fear warning or something, I don’t know. But for whatever reason, we only need to address this issue once or twice a year — evidently as new generations arrive or the old scents disappear. Our fish are several years old now (and will outlive us, we are told). They are big and beautiful and deserve their space. They get frightened too, especially by cats leaning over and slobbering into the water. We have given them little spaces where they can sort of hide and lots of plant cover, but the cats definitely pose a danger. And we intend to do whatever we have to do to protect our fish. I wish some others were as understanding as you are. I don’t blame you for wanting to protect your fish. As far as I’m concerned, if the cat is feral, then it’s no different from any other wild animal when it comes to protecting your property…you are not obligated to let them run around in your yard eating your fish. Although I do think you are obligated to use the most humane method you can figure out to get rid of them. > [@](#): > > ETA > > Incidentally, we actually have an (mostly) outdoor cat. I think she makes some difference in helping to defend the property generally. She has all her claws, but she is almost 18 years old, arthritic to some extent, and has deafness that goes in and out. We have an indoor cat as well. We love cats. But that doesn’t mean that we feel obligated in some way to every cat in existence. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mild-objection-to-a-dex-thread-closing/429485/60 "2007-12-11T20:31:43Z")
**Lib** why don’t you (temporarily) replace the koi with piranha? 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mild-objection-to-a-dex-thread-closing/429485.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mild-objection-to-a-dex-thread-closing/429485.md?page=4)