# Miles, kilometres and England. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 20, 2005, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-kilometres-and-england/322544 "2005-09-20T15:41:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-kilometres-and-england/322544/21 "2005-09-20T22:58:59Z")
> [@ticker](#): > > There is still a pub, the [Kings Head](http://www.kingsheadtheatre.org/Pub.htm) in Islington, London, where the owner refuses to let go of the old money. All prices are in pounds and shillings. There are some changes one can’t fight forever and said owner, Dan Crawford, has [recently died](http://www.guardian.co.uk/obituaries/story/0,,1528811,00.html). While I doubt the traditions of the King’s Head will change immediately, the Grim Reaper does win in the end. ---
**Author:** ![rayh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@rayh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayh)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-kilometres-and-england/322544/22 "2005-09-20T23:30:46Z")
> [@Vetch](#): > > ( And never forget that 1 gallon of beer = half a peck) 1 gallon of beer = a good night out. ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-kilometres-and-england/322544/23 "2005-09-21T06:22:11Z")
> [@Vetch](#): > > I know the question was about England but Scotland and Wales are still in the same hotch potch of mixed imperial and metric weights and measures too. I imagine it will take long time before we change from our miles per hour/gallon > > Some parts of the UK are a bit behind the times though. > 1 ounce = 480 grains > 1 ounce = 24 scruples > 1 ounce = 20 pennyweights > 1 ounce = 8 drams. > ( And never forget that 1 gallon of beer = half a peck) Railway engineers still use miles and **chains** when talking about distances along the track , especially regarding the position of a particular signal or crossing. ---
**Author:** ![seosamh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@seosamh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seosamh)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-kilometres-and-england/322544/24 "2005-09-21T10:59:33Z")
Just to clarify what **Rayne Man** has just said for American viewers, over here a railway engineer is someone who works on the permanent way, not the person who drives train. The standard gauge of 4ft 8½ ins is rarely spoken of in metric, although it is given in the Railways Act 1993 as 1435 millimetres. However, if you discount the permanent way, most other measurements on Great Britain’s rail network are reckoned in metric, for example the standard length of a passenger vehicle is 23 metres, the minimum width of a single-face platform is 3 metres and so on. Talking of chains, a chain is 22 yards - i.e. one tenth of a furlong and hence an eightieth of a mile - and the traditional length of a cricket pitch as measured from stump to stump. There was a stupid story in the papers this week about a cricket team up in Scotland who went the entire season not realising that their groundsman has set their wicket at 22 **metres** long rather than 22 **yards**. They couldn’t understand how their bowlers had been so rubbish all season. I bet the groundsman was French… ---
**Author:** ![Oswald\_Bastable](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oswald_bastable/32/214_2.png) [@Oswald\_Bastable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oswald_Bastable)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-kilometres-and-england/322544/25 "2005-09-21T11:03:56Z")
> [@ticker](#): > > There is still a pub, the [Kings Head](http://www.kingsheadtheatre.org/Pub.htm) in Islington, London, where the owner refuses to let go of the old money. All prices are in pounds and shillings. I’ve been to the Kings Head many times (theatrical type, you know) and although noting the rather wonderful old style till, never knew this. I’ve always been asked for money in pounds and new pence and they’ve gladly accepted my new fangled money. How exactly are they refusing to let go of the old money? Is it just that they display prices in £sd before asking for the money in £s & pence? OB ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-kilometres-and-england/322544/26 "2005-09-21T11:22:51Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > The whole point of a unit of area is that the shape is irrelevant…but in any case, the acre has perfectly logical dimensions - one chain by one furlong. Yes. Unusually, an acre (as defined) has an aspect ratio of 10:1 instead of the 1:1 ratio of yer average measure of area. So if you _must_ have a square shape with an area of one acre, it’ll be 22 x (sqrt(10)) yards. Pre-decimal currency… Twelve pence to a shilling Twenty shillings to the pound Coins: Farthing - one-quarter penny (I have one in my wallet); small bronze coin Halfpenny (hayp’ni); 1" diameter bronze coin Penny; 1.25" diameter bronze coin Threepenny (thrup’ni) bit - dodecagonal brass coin, formerly a very small silver coin Sixpence - slightly larger silver (later cupro-nickel) coin Shilling - nearly 1" diameter silver (later cupro-nickel) coin Florin, or two-shilling piece - still larger silver (later cupro-nickel) coin Half-crown (“two shillings and sixpence”), an eighth of a pound - startlingly large silver (later cupro-nickel) coin Crown, a quarter of a pound - enormous silver (later cupro-nickel) coin; not in general circulation by the 20th century, struck occasionally as a commemorative issue and usually kept as a souvenir rather than spent. Gold coins, the half-sovereign and sovereign (ten shillings and a pound, respectively) hadn’t been in common use for many years. Notes: ten shillings, one pound, five, ten, twenty, more… all of differing sizes and colours. We can’t understand why anyone would make all their paper money the same shape and colour. “Prestige” goods, also lawyers’ fees, school fees, club membership etc., were often priced in “guineas”, 1gn = £1 1s. This was an anachronism, guinea coins were ancient history. ---
**Author:** ![rayh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@rayh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayh)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-kilometres-and-england/322544/27 "2005-09-21T11:36:36Z")
As a bit of trivia, Brian May of Queen used to play his guitars with an old sixpence piece. ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-kilometres-and-england/322544/28 "2005-09-21T12:27:52Z")
Another bit of trivia concerning our old currency. Pre WW2 the exchange rate was four US dollars to the pound. This led to the slang terms of “a dollar” for five shillings “half a dollar” for the half crown. ---
**Author:** ![seosamh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@seosamh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seosamh)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-kilometres-and-england/322544/29 "2005-09-21T12:32:04Z")
Further to **Malacandra’s** post, the florin or 2 shilling piece was first issued in 1849 as a tentative step towards decimalisation, there being 10 of them to the pound. ---
**Author:** ![Fridgemagnet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/22d042/32.png) [@Fridgemagnet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fridgemagnet)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-kilometres-and-england/322544/30 "2005-09-21T13:00:52Z")
**Malacandra’s** point about the demise of the guinea is premature. Some of the snootier professions (lawyers, antique dealers) still bill in guineas, but pragmatically accept an exchange rate of 1 guinea=£1.05p. Some horse race prizes are quoted in guineas too (e.g. the 1000 Guineas Cup). ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-kilometres-and-england/322544/31 "2005-09-21T13:23:58Z")
> [@seosamh](#): > > Further to **Malacandra’s** post, the florin or 2 shilling piece was first issued in 1849 as a tentative step towards decimalisation, there being 10 of them to the pound. Yup. And the “silver” coins still current in February 1971 all had exact decimal equivalents, and hung around for a while. 6d = 2.5p, 1s = 5p, 2s = 10p, 2/6 = 12.5p. Also, the 50p coin existed for a couple of years pre-decimalisation, being exactly equal in value to the 10s note. Immediately post-decimalisation, and for about a decade, we had a 0.5p coin, but Seventies inflation quickly rendered it more ornament than use. A 20p coin appeared in 1982, a £1 coin in 1983, and all the “silver” coins except the 20p became much smaller in the early 1990s. That saw the final end of the pre-decimal shillings and florins (sixpences and half-crowns had been phased out earlier). Coins no longer say “New Penny” or “New Pence”. We figured out, maybe 20 years after the event, we knew pretty much which kind of penny we were talking about. ---
**Author:** ![seosamh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@seosamh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seosamh)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-kilometres-and-england/322544/32 "2005-09-21T13:46:25Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Coins no longer say “New Penny” or “New Pence”. We figured out, maybe 20 years after the event, we knew pretty much which kind of penny we were talking about. … although there are many, many completely brainless eejits out there who say “one PENCE”. Nobody in his or her right mind used to say that with the old penny so why effing well do it now??? ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-kilometres-and-england/322544/33 "2005-09-21T13:48:48Z")
> [@seosamh](#): > > … although there are many, many completely brainless eejits out there who say “one PENCE”. Nobody in his or her right mind used to say that with the old penny so why effing well do it now??? It’s probably the same people who put an “s” on the end Euro. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-kilometres-and-england/322544/34 "2005-09-21T13:50:34Z")
> [@seosamh](#): > > … although there are many, many completely brainless eejits out there who say “one PENCE”. Nobody in his or her right mind used to say that with the old penny so why effing well do it now??? Up to now I’ve always resisted the impulse to shove a coin under their nose and say “_Does it say one fucking PENCE, arsehole?_” but you never know, as geezerhood draws closer… :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-kilometres-and-england/322544/35 "2005-09-21T14:36:03Z")
> [@Rayne Man](#): > > It’s probably the same people who put an “s” on the end Euro. How is this equivalent? It seems only natural to an English speaker that the plural of “euro” would be “euros.” ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-kilometres-and-england/322544/36 "2005-09-21T14:44:43Z")
Back to non-monetary measurements. It sounds as if England has no problem using both systems. If it weren’t for °C vs. °F, which would confuse too many people, the U.S. might have a chance. ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-kilometres-and-england/322544/37 "2005-09-21T15:44:37Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > How is this equivalent? It seems only natural to an English speaker that the plural of “euro” would be “euros.” It’s more complicated than I thought . See this quote from [Englishforums.com](http://Englishforums.com) \*The English Style Guide of the European Commission Translation Service states: 12.12 … Guidelines on the use of the euro, issued via the Secretariat-General, state that the plurals of both ‘euro’ and ‘cent’ are to be written without ‘s’ in English. Do this when amending or referring to legal texts that themselves observe this rule. Elsewhere, and especially in documents intended for the general public, use the natural plural with ‘s’ for both terms. Because the s-less plurals had become “enshrined” in EU legislation, the Commission decided to retain those plurals in English in legislation even while allowing natural plurals in other languages, but the European Commission Translation Service (ECTS) strongly recommends that in all material generated by the Commission intended for the general public, the “natural plurals” of each language be used. As the euro was being adopted in the Republic of Ireland, however, the Ministry for Finance decided to use the word euro as both the singular and plural forms of the currency, and because Irish broadcasters took their cue from the Ministry, the “legislative plurals” tend to also be used on the news and in much Irish advertising. This has the effect of reinforcing the s-less plurals, though many advertisers (particularly those in the United Kingdom) prefer the “natural” plurals: euros and cents. (This is in line with ECTS recommendations.) Many people in Ireland prefer the -s plurals, and at the time the s-less plurals were introduced, at least some complained that the EU ought not attempt to change English grammar. People who have become accustomed to what they hear on daily television and radio often use the s-less plurals, which they also see written on the notes and coins. While usage in Ireland is disputed, common usage in the rest of the English-speaking world is to use the natural plurals. The media in the UK prefers euros and cents as the plural forms. Broadcasts of currency exchange rates outside of the European Union tend to use the -s plural; with NPR in the United States and the CBC in Canada being two examples. - Sorry for the hijack ! ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-kilometres-and-england/322544/38 "2005-09-21T19:59:11Z")
> [@seosamh](#): > > … although there are many, many completely brainless eejits out there who say “one PENCE”. Nobody in his or her right mind used to say that with the old penny so why effing well do it now??? I hope you’re equally pedantic about other plurals which have over time evolved into singulars. For example, I hope you only ever talk about ‘these data’, or ‘this datum’. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![seosamh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@seosamh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seosamh)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-kilometres-and-england/322544/39 "2005-09-21T22:49:49Z")
At least “penny” is a real English word (well, Old English via German, Dutch and Old Norse) about which there is absolutely NO doubt. As my new mate **Malacandra** so succinctly implies, the coin itself clearly states its name on the back, just above the portcullis: thus. Anyway, when it comes to - some - words which look Latin, there are some who treat them as if they were actually still Latin words (although only for plural purposes: I have never seen anyone try to slip in, for example, their dative or ablative forms anywhere). ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-kilometres-and-england/322544/40 "2005-09-21T22:57:20Z")
> [@seosamh](#): > > At least “penny” is a real English word (well, Old English via German, Dutch and Old Norse) about which there is absolutely NO doubt. As my new mate **Malacandra** so succinctly implies, the coin itself clearly states its name on the back, just above the portcullis: thus. > > Anyway, when it comes to - some - words which look Latin, there are some who treat them as if they were actually still Latin words (although only for plural purposes: I have never seen anyone try to slip in, for example, their dative or ablative forms anywhere). I’m not sure if you’re missing or avoiding my point. ‘Data’, as an English word, used to be plural. Now, it is either singular or plural. Eventually, ‘datas’ will probably become accepted. None of this has anything to do with Latin, it has everything to do with language evolving over time. Insisting that ‘pence’ should _only_ be used as a plural is insisting on abstract rules. Who, where, when, dictated the ‘correct’ singular of ‘pence’? (There’s no doubt an answer to that, but as with Euros, it’s probably incomplete and unsatisfactory) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-kilometres-and-england/322544.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-kilometres-and-england/322544.md?page=3)