# Miles O'Brien's position on Deep Space Nine. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 6, 2014, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-obriens-position-on-deep-space-nine/680649 "2014-02-06T10:22:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-obriens-position-on-deep-space-nine/680649/41 "2014-02-07T20:47:37Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > Other posters have already established that Troi is not an MD. Regardless, O’Brien had to take orders from Dax and Crusher because they outranked him, not because they were medical personnel. The only “broad power” medical staff have over officers is to forcibly relieve them of duty for medical reasons. …Which is a pretty formidable power. I’d be inclined to do whatever they say, rather than risk being declared unfit for duty. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-obriens-position-on-deep-space-nine/680649/42 "2014-02-07T21:23:26Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Troi says she is a psychologist (not a psychiatrist) on a couple of occasions. Can you identify the episode I referenced above? Does she say “psychiatrist” or “psychologist”? ---
**Author:** ![BorgHunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@BorgHunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BorgHunter)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-obriens-position-on-deep-space-nine/680649/43 "2014-02-07T21:39:37Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Can you identify the episode I referenced above? Does she say “psychiatrist” or “psychologist”? “[Haven](http://www.chakoteya.net/nextgen/105.htm)”, maybe? > [@](#): > > WYATT: What I want is to cure people. > TROI: Well, I’m a practicing psychologist. Maybe we can work in concert. Also: Compare and contrast [Crusher’s](http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060412163720/memoryalpha/en/images/4/4f/Beverly_Crusher_personnel_file.jpg) and [Troi’s](http://static4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060412163422/memoryalpha/en/images/3/30/Deanna_Troi_personnel_file.jpg) personnel files from “Conundrum”. Crusher has an “M.D.” after her name. Troi does not. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-obriens-position-on-deep-space-nine/680649/44 "2014-02-07T22:47:18Z")
So she’s just practicing. Not really doing it yet. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-obriens-position-on-deep-space-nine/680649/45 "2014-02-08T00:17:59Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > …Which is a pretty formidable power. I’d be inclined to do whatever they say, rather than risk being declared unfit for duty. But no doctor, fictional or otherwise, is going to make such a declaration without utterly unimpeachable reason, because any such action _will_ be meticulously scrutinized by those higher up the chain of command. If the doctor’s pronouncement wasn’t completely sound the consequences would be at best career-limiting and at worst fatal (say, a court martial and execution for mutiny). Seriously, read _Lieutenant Hornblower_, which is a good take on just how far a doctor might go to avoid exercising this power. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-obriens-position-on-deep-space-nine/680649/46 "2014-02-08T01:02:11Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > O’Brien even has his own downbeat Web cartoon: [http://citycyclops.tumblr.com/post/47438604888/miles-obrien-has-a-job-the-chief-obrien-at](http://citycyclops.tumblr.com/post/47438604888/miles-obrien-has-a-job-the-chief-obrien-at) > That was “The Wounded”: [The Wounded (episode) | Memory Alpha | Fandom](http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Wounded_(episode)). > > It’s a little confusing, though, because the same actor played Gul Macet in that episode ([Macet | Memory Alpha | Fandom](http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Macet)) and Gul Dukat on DS9 ([Dukat | Memory Alpha | Fandom](http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Dukat)). The non-canon explanation is that they were cousins. The only known Cardassian to have facial hair. ---
**Author:** ![urban1a](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47c2d/32.png) [@urban1a](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urban1a)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-obriens-position-on-deep-space-nine/680649/47 "2014-02-08T03:15:47Z")
I never had a problem with O’Brien being a chief and I assumed that he was like ‘Chief of the Boat’ in the Navy; the highest ranking enlisted man, and I guess that is what he turned out to be on DS9. However, where are all of the other enlisted men? The only possible ones I can think of are the ‘red shirts’ on ST-TOS. The cannon fodder they sent down to the surface first, but I believe that those were always addressed as ensign or something; officers anyway. Bob ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-obriens-position-on-deep-space-nine/680649/48 "2014-02-08T03:17:41Z")
Quite true about the sole bearded Cardassian! > [@terentii](#): > > The only time McCoy had anything remotely like a Command function was in “Court Martial,” and then only because he was the senior officer present. His only orders were to place Spock under arrest and turn the ship around to retrieve the Captain. Check out Diane Duane’s very enjoyable ST novel _Doctor’s Orders_, in which Kirk, good-naturedly annoyed by McCoy’s needling him for supposedly having a cushy job, places McCoy in temporary command on what is _supposed_ to be a quiet mission. Good fun. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-obriens-position-on-deep-space-nine/680649/49 "2014-02-08T05:41:54Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > On _ **TOS** _, the chain of command was Kirk, Spock, Scotty, and (despite revisionist attempts to prove otherwise) Sulu (not Uhura). I can’t recall of any occasion where Uhura was anywhere near the top of the chain of command by basis of position (as opposed to by basis of interpersonal relationships, which gets more complicated). In the reboot movies at least, the chain seems to go Pike, Kirk, Spock (switch these two around depending on the film for the desired character dynamic), Sulu, and it hasn’t dropped any lower than that, but it would seem that Scotty trumps Chekhov, since Chekhov had to fill his position as Chief of Engineering when Scotty was away. Uhura is officially near the bottom of the stack, but she’s wearing the space pants in a relationship with Spock, and Kirk seems visibly terrified of her at times. Mostly she doesn’t seem to influence major decisions though on a ship-wide basis. Then again, I don’t think Sulu’s ever been in command when Scotty was an official member of the crew, so Scotty may very well still stack above Sulu normally. As far as the original TV show goes, I’m only maybe six episodes in on the Blu-Ray discs, but it seems to go Kirk, Spock, and at this point Scotty, Sulu, Uhura, and Rand are all part of a rotating cast of minor officers (along with Nurse Chapel, but she’s a medical officer and thus out of the stack). Rand is probably at the very bottom of it, but I’m not clear if Yeoman is a rank (so possibly below Ensign or Lieutenant) or a position (like how Lieutenant Uhura is the Communications Officer, and Lieutenant Sulu is the Botanist/Helmsman/Whatever-it-is-he’s-doing-this-week-because-the-writers-haven’t-figured-it-out-yet.) Mostly her job seems to be to put in danger so that Kirk can save her. Seriously, in 3 out of the first four episodes, she has a near-redshirt experience. In the other episode, she hadn’t been written into the show yet when they produced it. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-obriens-position-on-deep-space-nine/680649/50 "2014-02-08T05:55:48Z")
I can’t believe no one’s caught this yet … it came to me just now as I was trying to get to sleep … but the episode I was thinking of wasn’t “Court Martial,” it was Part One of “The Menagerie.” **D’oh!** :smack: ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-obriens-position-on-deep-space-nine/680649/51 "2014-02-08T06:01:57Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > I can’t recall of any occasion where Uhura was anywhere near the top of the chain of command by basis of position (as opposed to by basis of interpersonal relationships, which gets more complicated). In one of his books, David Gerrold claims Uhura was fourth in command and cites Dorothy Fontana as his source. She apparently made this claim at a convention some time after the series went out of production. During the run of _ **TOS** _, Sulu (Helmsman and Weapons Officer) assumed command when Kirk, Spock, and Scotty were not around (e.g., in “Errand of Mercy”). I would never have bought Uhura as a fourth in command as she was far too junior an officer with too narrow an area of responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-obriens-position-on-deep-space-nine/680649/52 "2014-02-08T06:06:09Z")
> [@urban1a](#): > > However, where are all of the other enlisted men? The only possible ones I can think of are the ‘red shirts’ on ST-TOS. The cannon fodder they sent down to the surface first, but I believe that those were always addressed as ensign or something; officers anyway. Apparently they account for many of the technicians on board. In _ **TNG** _, it’s made clear that the medical corpsman accused of treason/espionage in “The Drumhead” was not a commissioned officer and had not attended the Academy. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-obriens-position-on-deep-space-nine/680649/53 "2014-02-08T06:13:17Z")
The red shirts I believe were all ensigns, but Kirk’s Enterprise had a lot of guys wandering around in sort of pajama-like get ups who were addressed only as “crewman.” Perhaps they were the enlisted guys. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-obriens-position-on-deep-space-nine/680649/54 "2014-02-08T06:14:21Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > I’m not clear if Yeoman is a rank or a position. According to the _American Heritage Dictionary_ (Fourth Edition), a yeoman is “A petty officer performing chiefly clerical duties in the U.S. Navy.” ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-obriens-position-on-deep-space-nine/680649/55 "2014-02-08T06:21:14Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > I can’t recall of any occasion where Uhura was anywhere near the top of the chain of command by basis of position (as opposed to by basis of interpersonal relationships, which gets more complicated). Now that I think about it, Nichelle Nichols did complain in an interview (again, I believe, with David Gerrold) that in the early drafts of one episode, Uhura was supposed to take command of the\* Enterprise\*, but this was changed in later rewrites specifically because she was a woman. Her reaction was, IIRC, “I pitched a bitch!” ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-obriens-position-on-deep-space-nine/680649/56 "2014-02-08T06:22:52Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > She is also stated to be a qualified bridge officer. It makes sense that in an intersteller Navy like Starfleet, where the ship is far from help, you don’t have any deadweights around. If its standard to give medical personnel some ship driving training, I don’t see a problem with it. I kind of suspect that it’s simply a matter of having somebody in the Captain’s chair who has sufficient rank to give orders that will be obeyed. I don’t recall seeing too many full Commanders on the TNG Enterprise - just Riker and Crusher. With Crusher in command, I suspect that her primary task was to trust the other bridge personnel to know how to do their jobs properly, and let them do it. She simply had to be the one to give the orders and take responsibility for the results. > [@BigT](#): > > They have the ability to do so, sure, but the vast majority don’t. There are too few psychiatrists per patient and so they have to focus on the medicine aspects and have a psychologist or even case worker/therapist handle the rest. Anecdotal evidence for psychologists not being qualified to prescribe medicine: my former roommate was a psychologist (though long non-practicing) and put all sorts of stock in homeopathic and herbal remedies. At least for his own medical/psychological/emotional issues (my amateur diagnosis of the guy was that he was a flaming hypochondriac). If he had any actual knowledge of medicine I’m fairly certain he’d have seen the homeopathic/herbal “remedies” for the woo the were. > [@](#): > > Though, based on Troi’s encounters with Barclay, I’d say she can’t give out medicine. There were some times where an emergency medication would have been useful. Instead, she teaches some woo-ish thing called “plexing,” (which I fanwank by believing it was a placebo). I can’t say for certain, but the worst I could say about Barclay was that he suffered from some degree of Asperger’s Syndrome. Barclay was basically a very socially-awkward guy who was lacking in self-confidence. He was professionally competent at his job, but turned into a basket case when he was forced into social interaction. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’d say that O’Brien was a more competent chief engineer than LaForge. Unlike LaForge, he did not succumb to (or even demonstrate) the desire to experiment or research at the expense of keeping things run smoothly. O’Brien was the culmination of that scene between LaForge and Scotty. LaForge wasn’t interested in being a Scotty-esque “miracle worker”, but he was willing to experiment and take big risks to accomplish what was needed. O’Brien took that further, wanting to just do his job quietly and keep things running. I agree that he was probably a better engineer than LaForge. He wanted to keep things from ever getting to that “emergency” state. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-obriens-position-on-deep-space-nine/680649/57 "2014-02-08T07:35:26Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > I kind of suspect that it’s simply a matter of having somebody in the Captain’s chair who has sufficient rank to give orders that will be obeyed. I don’t recall seeing too many full Commanders on the TNG Enterprise - just Riker and Crusher. With Crusher in command, I suspect that her primary task was to trust the other bridge personnel to know how to do their jobs properly, and let them do it. She simply had to be the one to give the orders and take responsibility for the results. Which is exactly what the captains job is anyway. Or a large part of it. Btw, AFAIK Trois tests were so she could get a promotion to Commander. Maybe the rule is that for promotion above a certain rank you need to be Command qualified. And Beverly does get her own ship eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-obriens-position-on-deep-space-nine/680649/58 "2014-02-08T08:34:31Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Which is exactly what the captains job is anyway. Or a large part of it. Btw, AFAIK Trois tests were so she could get a promotion to Commander. Maybe the rule is that for promotion above a certain rank you need to be Command qualified. And Beverly does get her own ship eventually. Well, I got the impression that there was more to it than mere rank. It had to do with being allowed to actually command a starship. As has been already pointed out, Data was 3rd in the chain of command (Captain \> XO \> COO), despite being only a Lt. Commander. Data, despite having the same rank as Troi, outranked her as far as command of the Enterprise was concerned. “Rank” and “Command” were two different things. There were probably full Commanders in the Astrophysics and Botany departments, though we never saw them. But despite being Commanders by rank, they were in no way qualified to command the ship itself. They wore blue or “mustard” uniforms. To get into a red uniform, you had to qualify for “Command”. And that’s why Troi went through those tests. She wanted to qualify for “Command”. It wasn’t about promotion in rank, it was about being qualified. It was secondary that it came with a promotion in rank. Like the “real” navy, Starfleet promotions are largely based on seniority/time of service. So Troi would likely have made full Commander before long, but the promotion still wouldn’t have qualified her for “Command”. She had to undergo the tests. (pardon if my logic seems to wander above - I’m posting while enjoying some fine beer) ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-obriens-position-on-deep-space-nine/680649/59 "2014-02-08T09:12:13Z")
^ Actually, now that I think of it, many militaries (not navies) do have medical battalions, commanded by doctors, who are usually Lt Cols (equivalent to commander) and who typically have to undergo the same command qualification as the fighting arms colleges do. StarFleet has medical ships, commanded by Doctors. My own theory is that for a track like medical officers, who are expected to serve out in the field with (eventual) independent units, they are expected to at least e command qualified if they expect to advance past a certain rank. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-obriens-position-on-deep-space-nine/680649/60 "2014-02-08T16:37:03Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > According to the _American Heritage Dictionary_ (Fourth Edition), a yeoman is “A petty officer performing chiefly clerical duties in the U.S. Navy.” In the case of Yeoman Colt, it was a pRetty officer. Female urges, too? Rowr! Lock me up on Talos IV with HER in my cage! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-obriens-position-on-deep-space-nine/680649.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miles-obriens-position-on-deep-space-nine/680649.md?page=4)