# Militant Atheism: Good or bad **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 20, 2011, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/militant-atheism-good-or-bad/589693 "2011-07-20T08:41:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/militant-atheism-good-or-bad/589693/21 "2011-07-20T15:12:48Z")
> [@HumanBear](#): > > It also needs reminding (at the moment at least) that homophobia through religion should not be tolerated… One issue discussed in the past here on the SDMB is that, if the militant atheists are correct, the above is like every other moral assertion - it is faith-based just as much as any religious assertion, and cannot be proven. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/militant-atheism-good-or-bad/589693/22 "2011-07-20T15:18:51Z")
> [@HumanBear](#): > > My definition of militant atheist: Someone who is happy to tell strangers they are an atheist. Someone who will almost always challenge someone when they mention they are religious. Someone who will fight for the non-religious against any perceived religious bigotry. Of the three criteria, I’d ascribe “militancy” only to the middle one. And _those_ people are both rude and damaging to their own cause. ---
**Author:** ![HumanBear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/919ad9/32.png) [@HumanBear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumanBear)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/militant-atheism-good-or-bad/589693/23 "2011-07-20T15:32:32Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > One issue discussed in the past here on the SDMB is that, if the militant atheists are correct, the above is like every other moral assertion - it is faith-based just as much as any religious assertion, and cannot be proven. > > Regards, > Shodan Exactly, which is why the default position should be no bigotry until some proof of a different position can be found ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/militant-atheism-good-or-bad/589693/24 "2011-07-20T15:41:57Z")
> [@HumanBear](#): > > Exactly, which is why the default position should be no bigotry until some proof of a different position can be found Prove it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Nica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nica)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/militant-atheism-good-or-bad/589693/25 "2011-07-20T15:45:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > One issue discussed in the past here on the SDMB is that, if the militant atheists are correct, the above is like every other moral assertion - it is faith-based just as much as any religious assertion, and cannot be proven. > > Regards, > Shodan Agreed. Atheists have formed their own religion. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/militant-atheism-good-or-bad/589693/26 "2011-07-20T16:09:51Z")
I’m against militancy in general. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/militant-atheism-good-or-bad/589693/27 "2011-07-20T16:11:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Prove it. It needs not be proven. Utilitarian arguments are sufficient. If not allowing bigotry for any reason provides a more pleasant and prosperous community then that is reason enough for the position. It needn’t be a moral argument at all. That said, there are plenty of atheistic moral frameworks in which a ban on bigotry is perfectly consistent without supernatural appeal. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/militant-atheism-good-or-bad/589693/28 "2011-07-20T16:16:51Z")
> [@Nica](#): > > Agreed. Atheists have formed their own religion. Yes indeed. We have built churches, hold masses and have funding to lobby politicians. We are a religion. How dumb is that. Hell no. The absence of a belief is not a belief. You are putting names and characteristics on something that only exists in your mind. Atheists do not meet, do not have conversations about atheism, do not have funding. In no way is atheism a religion. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/militant-atheism-good-or-bad/589693/29 "2011-07-20T16:26:59Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Atheists do not meet, do not have conversations about atheism, do not have funding. You don’t? [Cite,](http://www.atheists.org/) [cite](http://www.militaryatheists.org/), [cite](http://www.atheistsunited.org/), [cite](http://www.ffrf.org/), [cite](http://www.theabsolute.net/minefield/asa.html), etc. Come on, **gonzo** , you’re making this too easy. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/militant-atheism-good-or-bad/589693/30 "2011-07-20T16:30:59Z")
> [@Nica](#): > > Agreed. Atheists have formed their own religion. Show me where my church or temple is, then. Oh, I know - the library. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/militant-atheism-good-or-bad/589693/31 "2011-07-20T16:32:26Z")
Meh, I don’t like the “we don’t have a church” argument. Fenway Park is often called a church, but that doesn’t make baseball a religion. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/militant-atheism-good-or-bad/589693/32 "2011-07-20T16:34:07Z")
So in SHOdanland that indicates atheists have a large and powerful organization and you would call it a church? The sad fact is a small group of people ,who claim to be atheists, are meeting in a few spots around the world. That is not a religion. That is not significant nor is it organized. It probably is only possible because of the internets. But in no way is it anything like a church. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/militant-atheism-good-or-bad/589693/33 "2011-07-20T16:36:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You don’t? > > [Cite,](http://www.atheists.org/) [cite](http://www.militaryatheists.org/), [cite](http://www.atheistsunited.org/), [cite](http://www.ffrf.org/), [cite](http://www.theabsolute.net/minefield/asa.html), etc. > > Come on, **gonzo** , you’re making this too easy. > > Regards, > Shodan And by your standards the PTA is a religion. Could you at least spend a few seconds thinking about stuff before you make a snarky post? I’m off to the religion where I clean up state parks now. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/militant-atheism-good-or-bad/589693/34 "2011-07-20T16:36:39Z")
By the definition of the OP, I don’t know of any militant atheists. First, in most parts of the US it would get one beat up or worse. However, the definition of militant atheist that the mainstream appears to use is someone, like Dawkins, who has the nerve to publish his lack of belief and not hide in the closet like we’re supposed to. I don’t consider a Christian who publishes a book on his beliefs a militant, and I don’t consider a church putting up a Jesus sigh as militant. Militants rant in parks and at street corners and make sure to inject “Jesus loves you” in every conversation. Them I’ve seen. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/militant-atheism-good-or-bad/589693/35 "2011-07-20T16:36:48Z")
I guess rather than just post the argument I don’t like I’ll say that I think religion centers on a shared set of actions and beliefs. It is cultural, ritualistic, and normative. It is “what you do” rather than just “what you believe”. Athiesm or theism is orthagonal to religion or irreligion - you can be religious and athiest (see, UU for example, or some types of Buddhists) and theistic and irreligious (C&E Catholics as one example). ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/militant-atheism-good-or-bad/589693/36 "2011-07-20T16:38:48Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > By the definition of the OP, I don’t know of any militant atheists. I’ve only known a few, certainly far fewer that militant Christians. These are people that would literally attack professed believer’s intelligence whenever it came up in conversation, just like the militant Christians would go off about how I was going to hell if they asked what church I went to and I said “none, I’m an atheist”. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/militant-atheism-good-or-bad/589693/37 "2011-07-20T16:39:17Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > I guess rather than just post the argument I don’t like I’ll say that I think religion centers on a shared set of actions and beliefs. It is cultural, ritualistic, and normative. It is “what you do” rather than just “what you believe”. Like the US Army? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/militant-atheism-good-or-bad/589693/38 "2011-07-20T16:39:20Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > Meh, I don’t like the “we don’t have a church” argument. Fenway Park is often called a church, but that doesn’t make baseball a religion. You must not know many Red Sox fans then. 😃 (Yankees fan here - they are actually devil worshipers.) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/militant-atheism-good-or-bad/589693/39 "2011-07-20T16:41:35Z")
Say what you will about “militant atheists”, they’ve never rung my doorbell on weekends trying to convert me. > [@Voyager](#): > > You must not know many Red Sox fans then. 😃 > > (Yankees fan here - they are actually devil worshipers.) Nonsense, none have ever worshipped George Steinbrenner. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/militant-atheism-good-or-bad/589693/40 "2011-07-20T16:42:22Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > I’ve only known a few, certainly far fewer that militant Christians. These are people that would literally attack professed believer’s intelligence whenever it came up in conversation, just like the militant Christians would go off about how I was going to hell if they asked what church I went to and I said “none, I’m an atheist”. Did they bring it up, or was it in response to a religious question or assumption? I wouldn’t say that rebutting arguments about saucer men landing or 911 conspiracies makes one a militant skeptic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/militant-atheism-good-or-bad/589693.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/militant-atheism-good-or-bad/589693.md?page=3)