I find it odd that the OP thought the term was in response to police using military ranks. Perhaps you don’t find the term useful because you never bothered to learn its meaning?
Well, it’s a good thing you are getting out from where you sit to the rest of the world, so you can learn WHY people don’t like it. There are very many good reasons listed here.
I would also add an additional reason - when police buy this tactical gear, there is a huge incentive to use it, even if the situation doesn’t require it. Gotta get your money’s worth, as it were. So you have tactical teams raiding a guy’s home to arrest him, when he’d just have likely reported in person if they’d asked.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17298159&postcount=28
Next time, read for comprehension. You are misrepresenting my post.
No. The implication of the term is that the police have a different job from the military and shouldn’t be using the same kinds of tactics.
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I’ve always seen the expression used to refer, rather specifically, to the police executing no-knock raids while dressed up in body armor and carrying M-4 assault rifles and flash-bang grenades (that sometimes land in cribs).
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nod Also shooting any perceived threat immediately - be it a guy holding what looks like a weapon, or the family dog who’s naturally scared and angered by a bunch of strangers barging on his turf and making a lot of noise.
Judging by headlines over the past couple years, US police in particular seem to have adopted a general policy of shooting dogs pre-emptively (though of course, I realize this could be misleading over-reporting, kind of like people are led to believe crime and gangs are everywhere all the time these days, when crime has really been steadily going down since the 80s)
Particularly when those veterans actually have some policing and keeping the peace experience… from doing it in Iraq or Afghanistan, where the public in fact *was *the enemy (or rather, the enemy could be anyone in the public). Also where proper and efficient policing procedure consisted in kicking down doors and shoving one’s rifle in people’s faces until they did what you were angrily shouting at them to do NOW NOW MOTHERFUCKER NOW. Old habits…
I idly wonder whether similar issues cropped up back in the 70s, when I expect veterans used to rooting out the Viet Cong wound up as cops stateside after the unpleasantness was over.
I think it mostly refers to this sort of thing.
I recall an anecdote from LA Riots, that I heard on NPR: A cop asked a NG trooper to “cover me.” Now, to a cop, “cover me” means, “I’m going in there; you stay here with your weapon drawn and be ready to help if I need it.” But to a soldier, “cover me” means “I’m going in there; you stay here and lay down a covering fire to keep the enemy busy.” Non-hilarity ensued.
Radley Balko follows this trend very closely, and has a stack of essays, articles, and columns as well as at least one book.
I think that sometimes the police do need to use similar tactics. The reason why SWAT teams were created in the first place was because there were situations where the typical uniformed officer found himself ill equipped and under trained to deal with. For a variety of reasons I believe that many police forces are too quick to resort to those tactics though. Part of it has to do with the arms race brought on by the war on drugs, police departments having to justify the costs of all those shiny new toys they bought, and, honestly, when you train people to do something they will often look forward to using the skills they were taught.
when i see or think of that word, means the same tactics ( training for example ) and equipment used by the military
which is a bit much unless there was some kind of martial law in effect ( which in under the NDAA law )
i think SWAT trains a bit like this ( has been mentioned from a fellow member ) … i can be wrong
I think that working as a police officer probably has a psychological toll on people. As an officer you’re dealing with some pretty shitty people on a daily basis. And even when you’re dealing with decent people they usually don’t want to see you because they’re having a bad day as they’re probably the victim of a crime or maybe someone just getting a ticket for speeding.
True enough, but that’s as true today as it was a thousand years ago so there should be no observed or observable shift caused by that factor. 50 years, or even 20 years ago they didn’t call in the SWAT vans just to bring someone in for questioning or toss their place. Hell, it’s built in the name : Special Weapons And Tactics. As opposed to the typical ones*.
But these days, SWAT or SWAT-like teams seem to be the first resort in some places, tactilol’d to the gills like they’re starring in Zero Dark Thirty, Arizona Time.
- does that make regular unis the TWAT team ?
In certain very rare circumstances, maybe. But not on a regular basis.
I agree. In my first post I even went on to say that I think the tactical stuff is a bit overused.
Use of disproportionate force necessary for the situation at hand (sending in a swat team armed with machine guns over drug possession).
An influx of war on terror veterans into the police force encouraging the idea that the police are a paramilitary unit, not a community unit
Addition of military hardware that has largely no use for police work (A recent study found that SWAT teams are only being used for what they were originally designed for 7% of the time, hostage situations, armed standoffs, etc. The rest of the time they are used on less dangerous situations like serving warrants or drugs), which the police then decide to use against the community because they already have the equipment and might as well make use of it. Due to the war on terror, there is a lot of military hardware the federal government is giving to local police agencies for free. So they figure ‘why not’.
An attitude that the police are an occupying force over a hostile community they do not respect or understand, rather than a group that works with the community to solve problems.
Shit like that. I’m not a cop, but from what I know of them the majority of what they do is dealing with the socially marginalized and emotionally disturbed. Addicts, the mentally ill, the homeless, crime victims, minorities, etc. A paramilitary unit isn’t the best option for that kind of thing.
I suppose being a cop means that if you arrive on the scene just in time to stop a crime in progress, that is the only time anyone is happy to see you; and that doesn’t happen very often. Usually you arrive after the damage is done, and the people there are people you’re either going to arrest/cite or ask a lot of questions they’re in no mood to answer.
Kudos to police officers for dealing with that every day and not quitting.
Well summed up, Wesley Clark.
Current stories are about police agencies getting MRAPs from the military. They are getting them for free since the military is getting rid of them. I think most agencies are not taking into account the cost of upkeep and maintenance for these vehicles. Most will be come a static display in a short amount of time.
But saying its because at some time there might be a “tough door to knock down” is vastly minimizing it. The feeling is that they can be used for those rare times when there is an active shooter and officers have to go in somewhere under fire. Specifically to pull victims out. A rifle bullet will go through a vest like a hot knife through butter. If you want to say that most of those departments will rarely or never use an armored vehicle for such a purpose you would be correct. However, when one of those situations do happen you just can’t shit out an armored vehicle. So which way is right?
Police forces have always been associated with military veterans. The modern civil service system encouraged that by giving veteran’s preference. However the percentage of the population currently with military experience is very low. I’m sure you will find that the amount of WWII, Korean and Viet Nam veterans on police forces were much higher than vets from the most recent conflict. On our department there is currently one guy who has been to Iraq or Afghanistan, me. There are a couple who were in Desert Storm. A couple more that served in peacetime only. When I got hired there were a bunch of Viet Nam vets that were retiring.
What makes you assume that serving a warrant or a drug arrest is inherently non-dangerous? Warrants can be from unpaid parking tickets up to murder. A drug arrest can be for a stoner or a violent criminal. There is no cookie cutter tactic. Each situation has to be evaluated separately. The last arrest warrant that we served using the ESU team was for an out of state murder warrant. The loaded gun used in the murder was found in the room with the suspect.
I don’t know how to react to that. You put minorities and crime victims on the same level as addicts and the mentally ill. I don’t quite get what you are saying. Does it take a special skill to talk to black people? If so, we got that covered. We actually hire black people if you can believe that. Asians and Hispanics too. Even women!
These vehicles cost about $350 000. Maybe some are getting used ones for free, or at a discount, but free isn’t in the current stories around here. And you’re right, stories rarely mention maintenance.
So not just for rescuing civilians while under sniper fire. When you pay that kind of dough, you got to use it. The more you use it the more “justified” the price.
And for perspective: the last Ottawa police officer shot while on duty was 5 years ago, while he was sitting in his car in a hospital parking lot. The one before that was over 30 years ago when the officer was in a mall to do an unrelated interview.
nm
Who knows what kind of weird madness is going on in Canada. You people are out of control. But here, yes its free. although apparently the departments have to pay shipping costs.
“gun calls, hostage-takings, injured people, officer rescues and high-risk warrants” seems pretty justified to have something armored. The Bearcat you mention is specifically made as a police vehicle although there is apparently a military version. I don’t know of any military that uses it in a military role. The references I’ve seen show the only military units that use it do so in a police/security role not a combat role. The MRAPs that are being given away are military vehicles.