# Military airplane markings - who decides? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 27, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-airplane-markings-who-decides/569233 "2011-01-27T20:48:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-airplane-markings-who-decides/569233/1 "2011-01-27T20:48:04Z")
Looking at WWII aircraft, it occurred to me that the wing markings to identify what plane belonged to what country had to be both unique and distinct. An aircraft had to be identified immediately from a glance, or else risk being shot down b accident. So, who got to decide what markings went on the plane wings? Was this done by the individual countries themselves, and any markings similar to another nation might be worked out in battle? Or was there an international organization to hash out these types of identifier questions? Another thing I noticed is that these markings aren’t necessarily representative of the country’s flag. The [Japanese](http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/internethobbies_2142_245930383) “zero” certainly was, but [Germany](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Balkenkreuz.svg)used a cross instead of a swastika. Why was this? Did [Finland](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Finland_roundel_WW2_border.svg) have “dibs”? Or maybe [Latvia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Roundel_of_the_Latvian_Air_Force_until_1940_border.svg) had a gripe? Who came up with the [British](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RAF_type_C1_roundel.svg)red, white and blue bullseye, and the [US](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USAAF_roundel_1943-1947.svg)single star inside a blue circle, with a white line in the background (the US markings changed throughout the war)? Was this the responsibility of the individual country’s air force (or army air corps)? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-airplane-markings-who-decides/569233/2 "2011-01-27T20:52:27Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > Germany used a cross instead of a swastika. Why was this? German planes in WWI used the same (or similar) cross: [http://images-01.delcampe-static.net/img\_large/auction/000/062/625/261\_001.jpg](http://images-01.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/062/625/261_001.jpg) [http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/07/129807-050-FBE11116.jpg](http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/07/129807-050-FBE11116.jpg) [![](http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/air-ww1/german-fokker-dr1.jpg) ](http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/air-ww1/german-fokker-dr1.jpg) [![](https://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200802/r228557_909827.jpg) ](https://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200802/r228557_909827.jpg) [![](http://www.bookmarked.com.au/images/T/Pfalz_Scout_Aces_of_World_War_1.jpg) ](http://www.bookmarked.com.au/images/T/Pfalz_Scout_Aces_of_World_War_1.jpg) Given that, I wonder if it wasn’t tradition, at least in part. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-airplane-markings-who-decides/569233/3 "2011-01-27T21:37:51Z")
I’m pretty sure each country decides on its own. Just like flags, I suppose. I mean, it’s not like everyone painted all their airplanes on the same day; if German intelligence finds out that the Brits are starting to paint circles on their wings, they’ll probably tell the Luftwaffe to take that into consideration. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-airplane-markings-who-decides/569233/4 "2011-01-27T22:08:08Z")
Heh. Captured B-17 in Luftwaffe markings: [File:B17 kg200.jpg - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:B17_kg200.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-airplane-markings-who-decides/569233/5 "2011-01-27T23:06:55Z")
Each country did their own, and made them as distinct as possible. That’s one of the reasons the Allies used “[invasion](http://www.spitfiresite.com/photos/historic/uploaded_images/d-day-stripes-735617.jpg) [stripes](http://www.gdg18.dial.pipex.com/P47DDay.jpg)” during the Normandy campaign. They figured that your normal GI or Tommy wouldn’t be all that familiar with plane markings and would shoot at anything they could see. The stripes left little doubt which side was which. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-airplane-markings-who-decides/569233/6 "2011-01-27T23:51:40Z")
Some planes were painted with camouflage colors but that seems to be a thing of the past. Some are painted dark green now which is a form of camouflage. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-airplane-markings-who-decides/569233/7 "2011-01-27T23:59:11Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > Another thing I noticed is that these markings aren’t necessarily representative of the country’s flag. The [Japanese](http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/internethobbies_2142_245930383) “zero” certainly was, but [Germany](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Balkenkreuz.svg)used a cross instead of a swastika. Why was this? Did [Finland](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Finland_roundel_WW2_border.svg) have “dibs”? Or maybe [Latvia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Roundel_of_the_Latvian_Air_Force_until_1940_border.svg) had a gripe? > > Who came up with the [British](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RAF_type_C1_roundel.svg)red, white and blue bullseye, and the [US](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USAAF_roundel_1943-1947.svg)single star inside a blue circle, with a white line in the background (the US markings changed throughout the war)? Was this the responsibility of the individual country’s air force (or army air corps)? Germany’s marking descends from the iron cross and predates the Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-airplane-markings-who-decides/569233/8 "2011-01-28T00:19:40Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > Who came up with the [British](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RAF_type_C1_roundel.svg)red, white and blue bullseye The [Wikipedia article about the RAF roundel itself](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force_roundels) suggests their roundel was chosen because the previously used WWI St George’s Cross was too similar to the German Iron Cross. I imagined such a practical concern would be addressed by the Force itself. ---
**Author:** ![buckgully](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb9ed0/32.png) [@buckgully](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buckgully)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-airplane-markings-who-decides/569233/9 "2011-01-28T01:55:32Z")
In WWII the US changed insignia several times. The original star had a red circle in it, which was dropped in 1942 to prevent mis-identification with Japanese planes. They kept tweaking it past the end of the war. Reference: [WWII Army Air Force Markings](http://www.bowersflybaby.com/stories/army_paint.html) ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-airplane-markings-who-decides/569233/10 "2011-01-28T02:45:16Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > They figured that your normal GI or Tommy wouldn’t be all that familiar with plane markings and would shoot at anything they could see. The stripes left little doubt which side was which. Why would that matter? What could your ‘normal GI or Tommy’ shoot that would harm a plane? Other than wasting his ammunition, what would it matter? ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-airplane-markings-who-decides/569233/11 "2011-01-28T02:46:45Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Germany’s marking descends from the iron cross and predates the Nazis. Indeed. I believe the post-war [German](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Roundel_of_the_German_Air_Force_border.svg)aircraft went back to the WWI era Roundel sometime in the 50’s. After re-unification, they went with this one. (is this a version of the Maltese cross?) . > [@buckgully](#): > > In WWII the US changed insignia several times. The original star had a red circle in it, which was dropped in 1942 to prevent mis-identification with Japanese planes. They kept tweaking it past the end of the war. Again, correct. In fact, the [first](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USAAC_Roundel_1926-1941.svg)design for WWII looked a bit like the British version, except it had a star inside. These plane markings went through a number of changes throughout the war. I find the Finland markings and Latvian markings intriguing… ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-airplane-markings-who-decides/569233/12 "2011-01-28T03:56:42Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Why would that matter? What could your ‘normal GI or Tommy’ shoot that would harm a plane? Other than wasting his ammunition, what would it matter? WW2 attack aircraft, which flew very low at times, _were_ sometimes brought down by ground fire. Rifles and pistols were fairly useless against them, but one lucky hit is all it takes, and with enough people shooting, that becomes a distinct possibility. Medium and heavy machine guns could be _very_ effective against low flying planes, and most ground units of any size had machine guns that could be used as anti-aircraft weapons. They often also had dedicated anti-aircraft guns which fired cannon shells, mounted on trucks. There was plenty of danger from ground fire at that time. Back in WW1, when most of the senior officer class of WW2 was learning the ropes, aircraft were often brought down by ground fire. The Red Baron being shot down by Australian ground troops using Lewis guns is the most famous example. That sort of thing makes an impression. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-airplane-markings-who-decides/569233/13 "2011-01-28T04:15:50Z")
During the invasion of Sicily, large numbers of paratroops were killed when their transport aircraft overflew the invasion fleet and were shot up by the ships’ anti-aircraft fire. They didn’t want a repeat of that on D-Day, hence the distinctive black and white “invasion” stripes painted on numerous allied aircraft. ---
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-airplane-markings-who-decides/569233/14 "2011-01-28T10:03:14Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > These plane markings went through a number of changes throughout the war. I find the Finland markings and Latvian markings intriguing… Don’t know about the Latvian markings, but the Finnish ones originated with this man, [Count Eric von Rosen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_von_Rosen), who used a blue swastika as a personal owner’s mark. In 1918 he donated an airplane with this mark painted on it to the white side in the Finnish civil war and the Finns decided to keep the symbol in their new air force. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-airplane-markings-who-decides/569233/15 "2011-01-28T10:58:03Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Why would that matter? What could your ‘normal GI or Tommy’ shoot that would harm a plane? Other than wasting his ammunition, what would it matter? Well, he could shoot bullets, which as mentioned above, could cause significant damage in sufficient quantity or if they hit something important (known as the “Golden BB”). The P-51D Mustang was said to be vulnerable to “Any boy with an air rifle” due to the fact that the Rolls Royce Merlin was liquid-cooled. Puncture a coolant line, and it will be just like when you drive a car without motor oil. Only with your car traveling through the air at hundreds of miles per hour. 😃 They could also conceivably shoot the _pilot_, which could cause considerable harm to the plane itself in turn.😃 Incidentally, the nation-identifying markings on military aircraft are known as Roundels. I love that the Brits are ballsy enough to paint bullseyes on their planes, but I love the New Zealanders even more for painting a [bullseye centered on a flightless bird](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Rnzaf_roundel.svg). (Fun fact, the Kiwi in the RNZAF roundel points either left or right, so that he is always facing forward while the plane is in flight. I just learned that.) Other distinct markings on a plane also serve to identify the unit it is attached to (for instance, the famous “Red Tails” of the 332nd Fighter Group (better known as the Tuskegee Airmen) or the shark-face noseart of the American Volunteer Group (AKA “The Flying Tigers”). Airplanes with the Air National Guard will often have a tailflash design fashioned after the state flag of the ANG unit it is attached to (the F-16s that lay in an air strike on a bunch of Decepticons in the second film can be identified as being from the New Mexico Air National Guard, IIRC) ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-airplane-markings-who-decides/569233/16 "2011-01-29T14:36:06Z")
[More on military aircraft markings](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_aircraft_insignia). With respect to deciding who gets to use which markings, it’s entirely up to each country. Note that Peru and Turkey use identical roundel markings, for example (although the national flag based tail markings are different.) Normally you want to make sure that your markings are easily distinguished from the markings of the country you’re fighting, which is why some markings have changed during wartime, such as the removal of the red centres from US, British, Australian, and New Zealand markings in the WW2 Pacific theatre to avoid confusion with the red Japanese markings, and the later addition of a white bar (permanently for the US and temporarily for the others) to distinguish even the shape of the Allied markings from the Japanese ones. Markings may also become simplified during wartime, either to make them easier to quickly identify under combat conditions, or just to make them easier to paint on in the field. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-airplane-markings-who-decides/569233/17 "2011-01-29T14:52:55Z")
Oh, so the first operational squadron of American fighter planes in England ended up borrowing planes from the British for some reason or another (I do not recall if they were a new unit formed from the Eagle Squadrons, or if their planes were still being shipped or had been judged not up to the task of fighting the Luftwaffe’s front line fighters). In any case, they obviosly didn’t have the American roundels painted on yet, and so the pilots had to paint them on themselves based on a rough description (basically, a white star would suffice). The only star they could find to use as an example was from a pendant that a Jewish guy in their squadron wore…😃 ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-airplane-markings-who-decides/569233/18 "2011-01-29T15:46:34Z")
The US roundel with (blue circle, white star, red dot) can be seen as variation of the red-white-blue roundels used by the Franco-Anglo Associated Powers in WWI. The white circle of the RAF roundel just morphed into a white national star. In the early days of WW2, the red dot was dropped to avoid confusion with the Japanese ‘meatball.’ Where the wings came from is a mystery to me, although the RAF also uses them as unit designators.