# Military not following illegal orders-How reliable is that? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2025, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-not-following-illegal-orders-how-reliable-is-that/1019407 "2025-06-10T02:24:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-not-following-illegal-orders-how-reliable-is-that/1019407/1 "2025-06-10T02:24:15Z")
It has been said over and over again as a reassurance against the Prez gaining too much power, but how reassuring _is_ that statement. I know that it was brought up a couple of times when I was in the USAF, but the actual details of what that actually meant never came up. Will the military for the most part just say no if the Prez tells them to do something legally questionable…and do they actually have a good idea as to what that might be? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-not-following-illegal-orders-how-reliable-is-that/1019407/2 "2025-06-10T02:34:50Z")
Prussian field marshals don’t mutiny. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-not-following-illegal-orders-how-reliable-is-that/1019407/3 "2025-06-10T02:37:52Z")
There is a very strong contingent of white supremacist in the US military who would love to fire on civilians. Since taking office, Trump has been purging the military leadership of those who would be opposed to his fascism, hence Hesgeth. [https://www.congress.gov/event/116th-congress/house-event/LC66984/text](https://www.congress.gov/event/116th-congress/house-event/LC66984/text) > **[The Violent Far-Right Terrorist Threat to the U.S. Military](https://www.cfr.org/blog/violent-far-right-terrorist-threat-us-military)** > > In addition to minority communities and those on the political left, far-right and white supremacist extremism threatens violence against institutions conservatives cherish as well, such as the U.S. … [https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2020/november/confronting-us-militarys-white-nationalist-problem](https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2020/november/confronting-us-militarys-white-nationalist-problem) ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-not-following-illegal-orders-how-reliable-is-that/1019407/4 "2025-06-10T03:05:36Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > There is a very strong contingent of white supremacist in the US military who would love to fire on civilians. Since taking office, Trump has been purging the military leadership of those who would be opposed to his fascism, hence Hesgeth. The senior leadership (Hegseth and a few other Michael Flynn-types aside) are pretty inculcated in a culture of upholding the Constitution and their duty to do so, and most who have gotten to or aspire a flag are not big ‘risk takers’ by dispositioned. Purging their ranks would leave a pretty thin and (in my estimation) mostly inept leadership that would hamper any organized action, but as much as Trump loves on Hitler’s generals, _Der Furher_ was prolific in how much he purged ranks and vengefully punished anyone to displeased him in senior leadership. Mid-level and junior officers, on the other hand…I’m not so confident about their ability to recognize and reject and illegal orders even if they weren’t conditioned for compliance, and there is undoubtedly an ambitious contingent who would eagerly follow orders from a rising despot regardless of obvious illegality. The real problems with White Nationalism are largely (but not exclusively) an enlisted issue and it is big one along with the other problems the military has failed to effectively address. Even worse, the FBI, DEA, BATFE, et cetera have essentially been pulled away from surveilling and dealing with threats from domestic radicalization and organized would-be insurrectionists to focus on the ‘immigration crisis’. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-not-following-illegal-orders-how-reliable-is-that/1019407/5 "2025-06-10T06:07:57Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Purging their ranks would leave a pretty thin and (in my estimation) mostly inept leadership that would hamper any organized action, but as much as Trump loves on Hitler’s generals, _Der Furher_ was prolific in how much he purged ranks and vengefully punished anyone to displeased him in senior leadership. The great majority of the senior military leadership that Hitler dismissed occurred during the war years, when he would sack commanders for failing to win in impossible situations or would argue with him when they weren’t in the select few that he would allow arguments with. The way he got the loyalty of the Wehrmacht upon taking power and continuing through to and during the war years was much simpler. He bribed them. [Bribery of senior Wehrmacht officers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bribery_of_senior_Wehrmacht_officers) > To ensure the absolute loyalty of _Wehrmacht_ officers and to console them over the loss of their “[state within the state](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_state)”, Hitler had created what American historian [Gerhard Weinberg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Weinberg) called “a vast secret program of bribery involving practically all at the highest levels of command”.[[9]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bribery_of_senior_Wehrmacht_officers#cite_note-FOOTNOTEWeinberg455-9) Hitler routinely presented his leading commanders with “gifts” of free estates, cars, checks made out for large sums of cash, and lifetime exemptions from paying taxes.[[10]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bribery_of_senior_Wehrmacht_officers#cite_note-FOOTNOTEWheeler-Bennett529-10) A typical example was a check made out for a half million [Reichsmarks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsmark), presented to [Field Marshal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalfeldmarschall) [Günther von Kluge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCnther_von_Kluge) in October 1942, together with the promise that he could bill the German treasury for any and all “improvements” that he might wish to make to his estate.[[10]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bribery_of_senior_Wehrmacht_officers#cite_note-FOOTNOTEWheeler-Bennett529-10) > > Such was the success of Hitler’s bribery system that by 1942, many officers had come to expect the bestowing of “gifts” from Hitler and were unwilling to bite the hand that fed them so generously.[[10]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bribery_of_senior_Wehrmacht_officers#cite_note-FOOTNOTEWheeler-Bennett529-10) When Field Marshal [Fedor von Bock](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedor_von_Bock) was sacked by Hitler in December 1941, his first reaction was to contact Hitler’s aide [Rudolf Schmundt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Schmundt) to ask if his sacking meant that he was no longer to receive bribes from the _Konto_ 5 (“bank account 5”) slush fund. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-not-following-illegal-orders-how-reliable-is-that/1019407/6 "2025-06-10T06:29:47Z")
From many years reading here about this question is it is very, very dangerous to refuse an order without repercussions. The courts are extremely deferential to the military and especially the president as regards the military. Military-101, first class, fist day is to follow orders. Period. Chain-of command is everything and they simply cannot tolerate Joe Soldier deciding whether or not an order is “legal.” Chances are excellent the military will ruin you if you refuse an order no matter what the reason. The order has to be pretty over-the-top wrong before someone refuses. And even then it will be a long and scary fight to defend yourself. Few soldiers will ever try this. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-not-following-illegal-orders-how-reliable-is-that/1019407/7 "2025-06-10T10:28:26Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Purging their ranks would leave a pretty thin and (in my estimation) mostly inept leadership that would hamper any organized action, but as much as Trump loves on Hitler’s generals, _Der Furher_ was prolific in how much he purged ranks and vengefully punished anyone to displeased him in senior leadership. The head of a terrorism prevention unit is a 22 year old recent grad who was an intern before this job. The head of FEMA didn’t know there was a hurricane season. The head of health and human services is a sewage swimming anti-vax nut. The head of the pentagon is an alcoholic rapist and white supremacist. Not only does Trump not care about competence, he is suspicious of it. American troops will absolutely fire on citizens. They’ll be some complaining here and there, but it won’t matter. America collapsed because every one of our institutions has collapsed, including the military. Also, Christian fascism has been working its way up into the officer corps for years. During the invasion of Iraq, you had generals in uniform talking in front of churches about the invasion being a holy crusade and the Air Force academy is a hotbed of Christo-fascism. > **[Casey.MetamorphosisSubmission2.pdf](https://cas.umw.edu/dean/files/2011/10/Casey.MetamorphosisSubmission2.pdf)** > > 98.58 KB [https://www.npr.org/2005/06/02/4676698/air-force-academy-embroiled-in-religious-controversy](https://www.npr.org/2005/06/02/4676698/air-force-academy-embroiled-in-religious-controversy) ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-not-following-illegal-orders-how-reliable-is-that/1019407/8 "2025-06-10T12:02:16Z")
It seems clearly against the Posse Com(spelling error) Act for 700 marines to deploy to California, so the answer is, not reliable at all. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-not-following-illegal-orders-how-reliable-is-that/1019407/9 "2025-06-10T12:17:35Z")
No it isn’t. Read the act. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-not-following-illegal-orders-how-reliable-is-that/1019407/10 "2025-06-10T12:19:58Z")
This is what I get from Wiki: > In the United States, a federal statute known as the Posse Comitatus Act, enacted in 1878, forbids the use of the US Army (and, as amended, the US Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, and Space Force), as a posse comitatus or for law enforcement purposes without the approval of Congress. I don’t think Congress approved this action, and the military seems to being used for law enforcement here. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-not-following-illegal-orders-how-reliable-is-that/1019407/11 "2025-06-10T12:30:28Z")
Remember that guy who asked during training, “How can I know that an order I receive to launch my missiles came from a sane president?” and was promptly discharged from the military? Of course he was; in that particular context, the President has sole authority to authorize a nuclear launch, and cannot have some fucking major sabotage the process because he thinks he needs to know why he did or did not receive any particular order… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-not-following-illegal-orders-how-reliable-is-that/1019407/12 "2025-06-10T12:35:25Z")
While the military frequently says that servicemembers should refuse illegal orders, in practice, that’s something that’s almost impossible to train. Obeying orders in general, by contrast, is something that’s really easy to train. Net result, soldiers are trained to follow orders. This is why I said that Newsome should have ordered the California National Guard to refuse Trump’s mobilization order, because it would have forced them to think about which orders were legal. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-not-following-illegal-orders-how-reliable-is-that/1019407/13 "2025-06-10T12:38:00Z")
Military enlisted look to their officers and senior enlisted for all guidance. Generally speaking, if your CO tells you to do something, you can be reasonably sure that what he’s telling you to do is lawful. While all military personnel are mandated by the UCMJ to challenge an unlawful order, doing so by a junior enlisted person would be a rarity and would likely accomplish nothing. The burden is really on senior officers to determine whether or not an order is lawful, and it can be a career-ending decision. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-not-following-illegal-orders-how-reliable-is-that/1019407/14 "2025-06-10T12:39:22Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > This is why I said that Newsome should have ordered the California National Guard to refuse Trump’s mobilization order, because it would have forced them to think about which orders were legal. Does the governor have that authority? Or would it be the governor claiming the original order was illegal? ---
**Author:** ![fedman1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@fedman1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman1)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-not-following-illegal-orders-how-reliable-is-that/1019407/15 "2025-06-10T15:08:43Z")
and you think this Congress wouldn’t go along with it? ---
**Author:** ![fedman1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@fedman1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman1)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-not-following-illegal-orders-how-reliable-is-that/1019407/16 "2025-06-10T15:09:08Z")
see lawsuit from Newsome ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-not-following-illegal-orders-how-reliable-is-that/1019407/17 "2025-06-10T15:12:08Z")
I’m sure they would, but they haven’t yet. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-not-following-illegal-orders-how-reliable-is-that/1019407/18 "2025-06-10T15:19:23Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > This is why I said that Newsome should have ordered the California National Guard to refuse Trump’s mobilization order, because it would have forced them to think about which orders were legal. This is getting really tiresome: > [@Is the President calling out the National Guard constitutional?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-president-calling-out-the-national-guard-constitutional/1019369/23): > > Again, the President does actually have authority to call up the National Guard and state militias. This is not a matter of opinion; it is statute law: > > > [10 U.S. Code § 252 - Use of militia and armed forces to enforce Federal authority > > _Whenever the President considers that unlawful obstructions, combinations, or assemblages, or rebellion against the authority of the United States, make it impracticable to enforce the laws of the United States in any State by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, he may call into Federal service such of the militia of any State, and use such of the armed forces, as he considers necessary to enforce those laws or to suppress the rebellion._](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/252) > > > [10 U.S. Code § 253 - Interference with State and Federal law > > _The President, by using the militia or the armed forces, or both, or by any other means, shall take such measures as he considers necessary to suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy, if it— > > (1) so hinders the execution of the laws of that State, and of the United States within the State, that any part or class of its people is deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law, and the constituted authorities of that State are unable, fail, or refuse to protect that right, privilege, or immunity, or to give that protection; or > > (2) opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the United States or impedes the course of justice under those laws._](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/253) > > Although still under notional control of the state governor, the President can issue a proclamation for “insurgents” to disperse: Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-not-following-illegal-orders-how-reliable-is-that/1019407/19 "2025-06-10T17:59:24Z")
Feels like this and the other thread exemplifies why Trump is likely to get away with this: the law (or at least understanding of the law) is genuinely complex and not entirely settled. ---
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-not-following-illegal-orders-how-reliable-is-that/1019407/20 "2025-06-10T19:10:06Z")
No, none of the conditions laid out in the statute have been met. It’s clearly an illegal order, and thus proof that the US military will follow orders without question, which is what they are trained to do. Part of the problem is the military worship that has been the norm since the Gulf War in '90-'91 as a response to the Vietnam War. The “thank you for your service” and all that nonsense. So, you can expect the US military to open lethal fire on protesters at some point no question. Most likely it will be a MAGA plant in the crowd that is willing to die that sets it off, and the Trump regime is counting on this. The regime just stated that they expect the US military will be deployed nationwide. The zombie troops will obey. Thinking they will not follow illegal orders is wishful thinking. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-not-following-illegal-orders-how-reliable-is-that/1019407.md?page=2)