# Military pilot/copilot re;ationships **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 31, 2006, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-pilot-copilot-re-ationships/378651 "2006-10-31T22:40:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-pilot-copilot-re-ationships/378651/1 "2006-10-31T22:40:55Z")
I saw this very interesting Nova program, [The Deadliest Plane Crash,](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/planecrash/) about the runway collision that killed some 600 people, The program asserted that the crash investigation resulted in a revolutionary change to airline pilot training, and the relationships between pilots and other flight crew. . A leading factor of the crash was an egregious error by one of the senior pilots, that the rest the crew were too intimidated to point out. One person interviewed said the relationship of pilots to copilots, and particularly for very senior pilots like this guy, was like a knight to a squier. Today, the flight xrew are trained as a team, and are all “empowered” to speak up about any issues. Assuming this is true, I got curious as to whether this concept crept across to the military. I assume the old “bad” culture came from retired military vets, but I’m just guessing. Can anyone enlighten me on how rigid the command structure is in military cockpits? To avoid opinion as much as possivle, I should ask about training doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-pilot-copilot-re-ationships/378651/2 "2006-10-31T23:42:06Z")
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim] I saw this very interesting Nova program, [The Deadliest Plane Crash,](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/planecrash/) about the runway collision that killed some 600 people, The program asserted that the crash investigation resulted in a revolutionary change to airline pilot training, and the relationships between pilots and other flight crew. . A leading factor of the crash was an egregious error by one of the senior pilots, that the rest the crew were too intimidated to point out. One person interviewed said the relationship of pilots to copilots, and particularly for very senior pilots like this guy, was like a knight to a squier. Today, the flight xrew are trained as a team, and are all “empowered” to speak up about any issues. Assuming this is true, I got curious as to whether this concept crept across to the military. I assume the old “bad” culture came from retired military vets, but I’m just guessing. Can anyone enlighten me on how rigid the command structure is in military cockpits? To avoid opinion as much as possivle, I should ask about training doctrine. [/QUOTE] Despite my screen name I’ve been out of the business for a while but I would have to say I have never seen a problem with anyone trying to intimidate me with there position. An aircrew has to rely on each other. I have never seen it any other way. And I was an enlisted observer serving with an officer pilot. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-pilot-copilot-re-ationships/378651/3 "2006-10-31T23:50:35Z")
[QUOTE=Loach] Despite my screen name I’ve been out of the business for a while but I would have to say I have never seen a problem with anyone trying to intimidate me with there position. An aircrew has to rely on each other. I have never seen it any other way. And I was an enlisted observer serving with an officer pilot. [/QUOTE] It don’t think the suggestion is that the senior pilot _tries_ to intimidate, more like that the culture was that orders were to be followed without question. Like your boss doing something that seems dumbass to you, but you keep your mouth shut. Or more charitably, you think there must be a good reason for what he’s doing even if you can;t see it, so you just shut up instead of raising a quetion. ---
**Author:** ![A.R.Cane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@A.R.Cane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.R.Cane)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-pilot-copilot-re-ationships/378651/4 "2006-11-01T00:04:14Z")
This incident would seem to run counter to your suggestion that miliary pilots are immune from a superior, and dangerous, attitude: > **[1994 Fairchild Air Force Base B-52 crash](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bud_Holland)** > > On Friday, 24 June 1994, a United States Air Force (USAF) Boeing B-52 Stratofortress crashed at Fairchild Air Force Base, Washington, United States, after its pilot, Lieutenant Colonel Arthur "Bud" Holland, maneuvered the bomber beyond its operational limits and lost control. The aircraft stalled, fell to the ground and exploded, killing Holland and the other three crew aboard. The crash was captured on video and was shown repeatedly on news broadcasts throughout the world. > The subsequent inve... ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-pilot-copilot-re-ationships/378651/5 "2006-11-01T00:13:01Z")
I am not sure how related this is but I will throw it in anyway. Both the pilot and co-pilot (more properly called First Officers) are fully rated pilots in that access with full legal authority to command the plane. However, someone has to be the boss and one person becomes the pilot in command (PIC) designated for each flight. Both the airlines and the military have a structure that tends to match experience and rank to the person that is PIC but not always. It is possible for a Lieutenant to be Pilot in Command over a Colonel acting as the co-pilot in which case their ranks will criss-cross as regards to what they have control over. The junior person assigned as PIC still makes the final decisions as regards to the plane. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-pilot-copilot-re-ationships/378651/6 "2006-11-01T00:22:43Z")
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim] It don’t think the suggestion is that the senior pilot _tries_ to intimidate, more like that the culture was that orders were to be followed without question. Like your boss doing something that seems dumbass to you, but you keep your mouth shut. Or more charitably, you think there must be a good reason for what he’s doing even if you can;t see it, so you just shut up instead of raising a quetion. [/QUOTE] I the point. I never saw it while I was a crewman. I did not feel there was a culture which set up a gulf between me and the pilot. If anyone was afraid to bring up a point because of the difference in rank, it was due to their own shortcomings not some institutional problem. This was in the Army so that might make a difference. Most pilots are warrant officers and tend to be a bit laid back. Most commissioned officers in army aviation tended to act in a similar fashion but maybe to not as great an extent. ---
**Author:** ![Scruloose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@Scruloose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruloose)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-pilot-copilot-re-ationships/378651/7 "2006-11-01T01:43:53Z")
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim] Assuming this is true, I got curious as to whether this concept crept across to the military. I assume the old “bad” culture came from retired military vets, but I’m just guessing. Can anyone enlighten me on how rigid the command structure is in military cockpits? To avoid opinion as much as possible, I should ask about training doctrine. [/QUOTE] The Coast Guard preaches and practices Team Coordination Training (TCT) in every aspect of our aircraft, cutter, and small boat operations. (And yes, we are military) Our TCT program was adopted from the program used in the civil aviation community, which was a result of the tragedy at Tenerife. We take it very seriously, use it often, and those of us who drive boats, cutters or aircraft are required to undergo refresher training every year. Some very basics: Every time a crew undertakes a mission, a risk assessment is done and the results are recorded. Risk is identified and mitigated where possible. Every member of the crew has a voice in the mission, regardless of grade or time in service. Junior members are asked for input first, so as to not have their concerns swayed by the opinions/comments of senior members. Everyone is charged with constantly monitoring the mission and re-evaluating the risks involved. Everyone is charged with speaking up with concerns should they arise. Everyone is charged with monitoring the members of the team and guarding against tunnel vision. None of this, however, undermines the authority and responsibility of the a/c commander, coxswain, OOD or CO, who will always have the final say. When this program was first implemented in the mid-90s, many were resistant to the idea of giving every member of a crew input on a mission. The orders from on high, however, were clear, and now it’s become an everyday part of our operations. And that’s a good thing. It works. ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-pilot-copilot-re-ationships/378651/8 "2006-11-01T02:15:05Z")
[QUOTE=A.R. Cane] This incident would seem to run counter to your suggestion that miliary pilots are immune from a superior, and dangerous, attitude: > **[1994 Fairchild Air Force Base B-52 crash](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bud_Holland)** > > On Friday, June 24, 1994, a United States Air Force (USAF) Boeing B-52H Stratofortress strategic bomber crashed at Fairchild Air Force Base, Washington, United States, after its pilot, Lieutenant Colonel Arthur "Bud" Holland, maneuvered the bomber beyond its operational limits and lost control. The aircraft stalled, fell to the ground and exploded, killing Holland and the other three crew aboard. The crash was captured on video and was shown repeatedly on news broadcasts throughout the world. T... [/QUOTE] Wholly sweet god, read Kearn’s report, anyone know what happened to Holland’s superiors, if anything? What a load. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-pilot-copilot-re-ationships/378651/9 "2006-11-01T03:40:09Z")
The term you’re looking for is “Crew Resource Management”, or CRM, and there’s a whole bunch of policymaking and training for it in the airlines. [This study](http://www.leaonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/S15327876MP1501_06?cookieSet=1&journalCode=mp) says that’s the case in the military too, but certainly some pilots are not as adaptable to it as most. ---
**Author:** ![Chouinard\_Fan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a88e57/32.png) [@Chouinard\_Fan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chouinard_Fan)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-pilot-copilot-re-ationships/378651/10 "2006-11-01T06:08:21Z")
[QUOTE=Operation Ripper] Wholly sweet god, read Kearn’s report, anyone know what happened to Holland’s superiors, if anything? What a load. [/QUOTE] From the wiki art. it looks like all his superiors died with him, his squadron commander is specifically mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-pilot-copilot-re-ationships/378651/11 "2006-11-01T17:21:07Z")
[QUOTE=Chouinard Fan] From the wiki art. it looks like all his superiors died with him, his squadron commander is specifically mentioned. [/QUOTE] Yeah, I guess I should have been a bit more clear, in reading Kern’s report, it seems that several of his living former/current superior officers failed to discipline him, here is a [blurb](http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4186/is_19950425/ai_n11509775) about one. ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-pilot-copilot-re-ationships/378651/12 "2006-11-01T17:26:22Z")
Nm, another [blurb](http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4186/is_19950523/ai_n11510997) answered my question, guess they all got off except for Pellerin. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-pilot-copilot-re-ationships/378651/13 "2006-11-01T17:33:01Z")
[QUOTE=Scruloose] The Coast Guard preaches and practices Team Coordination Training (TCT) in every aspect of our aircraft, cutter, and small boat operations. (And yes, we are military) Our TCT program was adopted from the program used in the civil aviation community, which was a result of the tragedy at Tenerife. We take it very seriously, use it often, and those of us who drive boats, cutters or aircraft are required to undergo refresher training every year. Some very basics: Every time a crew undertakes a mission, a risk assessment is done and the results are recorded. Risk is identified and mitigated where possible. Every member of the crew has a voice in the mission, regardless of grade or time in service. Junior members are asked for input first, so as to not have their concerns swayed by the opinions/comments of senior members. Everyone is charged with constantly monitoring the mission and re-evaluating the risks involved. Everyone is charged with speaking up with concerns should they arise. Everyone is charged with monitoring the members of the team and guarding against tunnel vision. None of this, however, undermines the authority and responsibility of the a/c commander, coxswain, OOD or CO, who will always have the final say. When this program was first implemented in the mid-90s, many were resistant to the idea of giving every member of a crew input on a mission. The orders from on high, however, were clear, and now it’s become an everyday part of our operations. And that’s a good thing. It works. [/QUOTE] I will say in my experience as an enlisted member in the US Coast Guard (ET1/E-6) in the 1980s I was on about 20 flights in Coast Guard helicopters out of the old Airsta Brooklyn/Floyd Bennett field. I always found the officers who were pilots to be the best. Professional, polite and couteous in helping us on our missions. I would not say the same about every other “zero” on land or sea. Most were okay but there were some real jerks (evenly divided between “ringwearers” (Academy graduates) and 90 day wonders (the ones who were former QM’s must have excelled in brown nosing). Semper Paratus!!