# Military Polls Soldiers on DADT **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 14, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673 "2010-07-14T16:33:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/21 "2010-07-15T03:19:10Z")
I have seen militaries that have political opinions. I do not like living in or even visiting countries with those sorts of militaries. I do not care what anyone in uniform thinks about political matters. It is not a democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/22 "2010-07-15T03:37:09Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I have seen militaries that have political opinions. I do not like living in or even visiting countries with those sorts of militaries. > > I do not care what anyone in uniform thinks about political matters. It is not a democracy. Are you normally in the habit of making decisions without regard for their effects? ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/23 "2010-07-15T04:22:54Z")
If the army wanted you to have an opinion, they would have issued you one. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/24 "2010-07-15T04:25:39Z")
> [@Nancarrow](#): > > I think gays in the military could lead to all sorts of distractions for soldiers on the battlefield. [Especially if one’s a little blond Adonis farm boy and his buddy’s a real tough street kid straight out of Brooklyn. I mean, think about it: What if they lock eyes and abandon their post to start ripping each other’s fatigues off, revealing twin sets of glistening washboard abs and at last fulfilling their hidden passions?](http://www.theonion.com/articles/repeal-of-dont-ask-dont-tell-paves-way-for-gay-sex,17698/) > > So… yeah. I knew that article would show up here. Right on the money as usual. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/25 "2010-07-15T04:34:11Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > This. > > It’s important to understand how things will affect morale and function of personnel, not because you’re soliciting their opinion, but because you should know what sort of trouble to look for and be ready to handle. > > The military (and the government in general) tends to like to have as much information as possible anytime they’re looking at a policy change. > > The outrage is stupid and this polling is a non issue. Well, I’m not outraged, but it’s not as if they asked soilders how they felt about racial integration, women on naval vessels or in fighter planes. The politicians told command to make it so, and it was so, and, with few exceptions, that’s how it should be. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/26 "2010-07-15T04:55:52Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > OK, retards, so what would you do if Reagan/Clinton told you to take a survey? They wouldn’t. > [@](#): > > You’re saying “Who cares what the military thinks?” when it’s painfully obvious that THE CIVILIAN GOVERNMENT DOES. No it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/27 "2010-07-15T04:57:26Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Are you normally in the habit of making decisions without regard for their effects? The effects will be whatever the fuck they are ordered to be. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/28 "2010-07-15T05:14:35Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Are you normally in the habit of making decisions without regard for their effects? The military is making no decision. The politicians are making a decision. When they make it, soldiers will do as they are told. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/29 "2010-07-15T05:15:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The effects will be whatever the fuck they are ordered to be. No, the effects will be much more far-reaching than that. I would venture to say that the effects will somewhat decimate the military. Not that it’s a bad thing, mind you, but we need to face reality. I predict that no less than one in five enlisted men, maybe more, and one in four officers will quit just as soon as they can. This change will be no less devastating to the military than integration was. It’s one thing to talk about following orders, it’s another thing to talk about the reality of the situation. Oh, people will follow orders until the very day that they can get out, and they’re gone. That’s the absolute reality of it. While that’s not a bad thing, it will definitely reduce the military for years to come until people like me who don’t care start to enlist. [It’ll also make the military much more white, as it were, because African-Americans, from every poll I’ve seen, absolutely hate homosexuals](http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008/11/70-of-african-a.html). Hell, this could be a good thing for me. I’m already up for Master Sergeant, what with the loss of people I might one day make Chief. Bring it on. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/30 "2010-07-15T05:17:43Z")
Speaking as a Bleeding Heart Liberal, I hope you are wrong. But if we are short of people, maybe they can unretire me! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/31 "2010-07-15T06:14:38Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Didn’t they do the same thing in 1947, "If a n\*\*\*\*r wanted to shower at the same time you did in the same facility what would you do: > > Allow the boy to shower in peace > Ask kindly that he wait until after I was done > Remind him to go to the back of the facility > Stare at his enormous dong." I think they recycled that last response for the current poll. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/32 "2010-07-15T06:17:59Z")
I don’t see how it’s a bad idea to find out what the views of service members are. Both the civilian and military authorities are going to have to deal with the consequences of any decisions that are made about gays serving in the armed forces. Planning ahead is a better idea than waiting and reacting after the fact. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/33 "2010-07-15T06:20:08Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > No, the effects will be much more far-reaching than that. > > I would venture to say that the effects will somewhat decimate the military. Not that it’s a bad thing, mind you, but we need to face reality. > > I predict that no less than one in five enlisted men, maybe more, and one in four officers will quit just as soon as they can. This change will be no less devastating to the military than integration was. > > It’s one thing to talk about following orders, it’s another thing to talk about the reality of the situation. Oh, people will follow orders until the very day that they can get out, and they’re gone. That’s the absolute reality of it. While that’s not a bad thing, it will definitely reduce the military for years to come until people like me who don’t care start to enlist. [It’ll also make the military much more white, as it were, because African-Americans, from every poll I’ve seen, absolutely hate homosexuals](http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008/11/70-of-african-a.html). > > Hell, this could be a good thing for me. I’m already up for Master Sergeant, what with the loss of people I might one day make Chief. Bring it on. None of this will happen. For all their talk, the career types won’t go anywhere when push comes to shove. This is not a volatile an issue as integration was, and there isn’t any draft anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/34 "2010-07-15T06:32:53Z")
Believe what you want. Of course, I AM there, and I actually deal with these people. But hey, as always you know better than I do. We’ll see. For my part, I have no doubt whatsoever that my numbers will hold up where I’m at. None whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/35 "2010-07-15T06:58:11Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > I predict that no less than one in five enlisted men, maybe more, and one in four officers will quit just as soon as they can. This change will be no less devastating to the military than integration was. Some people, including military people, made similar doom-and-gloom predictions before countries like Australia, the UK, and Canada allowed gays to serve openly in the military, and yet in those countries the transition has been smooth and pretty much hassle-free, and hasn’t resulted in anything like the dramatic declines in personnel that you are predicting for the US military. If you’re right about the attrition rate that will occur in the United States, then the only conclusions we can reasonably draw is that American soldiers are not, in fact the professionals that they claim to be, and that Americans as a population are more bigoted and reactionary than people in similar Western democracies. And that will be pretty damn sad, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/36 "2010-07-15T07:01:36Z")
Here are lists of countries that allow gays to serve openly (Group A), and countries that don’t (Group B): ```auto Group A Group B Australia China United Kingdom Cuba Spain Egypt Germany Iran New Zealand North Korea Canada Singapore Israel Syria France Turkey Netherlands Venezuela Norway Yemen ``` That the US is still siding with Group B in this issue is a discredit to its government, its military, and its people. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/37 "2010-07-15T07:22:08Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Here are lists of countries that allow gays to serve openly (Group A), and countries that don’t (Group B): > > ```auto > > Group A Group B > > Australia China > United Kingdom Cuba > Spain Egypt > Germany Iran > New Zealand North Korea > Canada Singapore > Israel Syria > France Turkey > Netherlands Venezuela > Norway Yemen > > ``` > > That the US is still siding with Group B in this issue is a discredit to its government, its military, and its people. Whence came this information? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/38 "2010-07-15T07:29:26Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > If you’re right about the attrition rate that will occur in the United States, then the only conclusions we can reasonably draw is that American soldiers are not, in fact the professionals that they claim to be… No, it implies that they are human, and products of their environment. They need only be “professional” for the terms of their commitment, and no more. > [@](#): > > …and that Americans as a population are more bigoted and reactionary than people in similar Western democracies. Is there any doubt of that? You need only look at the results of Prop 8 in California, by far the most “liberal” state in the United States, to see that. > [@](#): > > And that will be pretty damn sad, in my opinion. Agreed. But that’s the way it is. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/39 "2010-07-15T08:21:54Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Whence came this information? I originally got it from Wikipedia, when i posted the same lists in a thread some months ago. If you want a more scholarly, official source, you can read [Gays in Foreign Militaries 2010: A Global Primer](http://www.palmcenter.org/files/FOREIGNMILITARIESPRIMER2010FINAL.pdf) (PDF), produced by the [Palm Center](http://www.palmcenter.org/) at UC Santa Barbara. Near the end, the report lists countries that allow gays to serve openly. The Executive Summary of the report contains an interesting observation that speaks directly to the argument that allowing gays to serve in the US will lead large numbers of servicemembers refusing to re-enlist: > [@](#): > > 1. Twenty-five nations now allow gays and lesbians to serve openly in the military. > > 2. In many of those countries, debate before the policy changes was highly pitched and many people both inside and outside the military predicted major disruptions. In Britain and Canada, roughly two thirds of military respondents in polls said they would refuse to serve with open gays, but when inclusive policies were implemented, no more than three people in each country actually resigned. It could be that, despite the threats, American servicemen and women will do the same. > [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > No, it implies that they are human, and products of their environment. They need only be “professional” for the terms of their commitment, and no more. If they resign just because of the policy, that suggests that their sense of professionalism is subordinate to their bigotry. That would make them pretty unprofessional, in my book. > [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Is there any doubt of that? You need only look at the results of Prop 8 in California, by far the most “liberal” state in the United States, to see that. I’m actually quite surprised at the reputation California has in America, most often among people who actually don’t seem to know very much about it. Many people seem to be under the impression that the state consists of San Francisco, Berkeley, Santa Cruz, and a few select neighborhoods of Los Angeles. Rather than point to the Prop 8 decision as a surprise (i was disappointed by the result, but not especially surprised), maybe it simply indicates that California isn’t as liberal as many people assume. Despite the stereotype of Birkenstock-wearing hippies that Americans love to throw about, California has large swaths of very conservative people. The whole Inland Empire and the Central Valley contains tons of conservatives, as do SoCal coastal urban regions like San Diego and Orange Counties, and Ventura County. The conservatism here is reflected not only on social and cultural issues like Prop 8 and immigration, but on economic issues like property taxes (the famous, or infamous, Prop 13 of 1978). ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/40 "2010-07-15T08:42:39Z")
Not to mention that Nixon and Reagan both come from California. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673.md?page=3)